illegal motors

[finger]

Whats up with you producing illegal 16-d motors when you know full well what the standards are. I herd from a friend that two guys got disqualifide at a recent race in Santa Maria California for illegal Best o the west motors. I was told one had to tite of an air gap, and you used an arm with a short stack length in the other. Whast the deal? How do you expect to sell product that cant be used or trusted.::confused:

[Rick56]

I hope you know for a fact, "not hearsay" what you are talking about because thats a pretty stiff allegation. I have bought from Monty and the stuff was right on spec. Perhaps these people made changes after buying Montys products. I can't imagine Monty risking his reputation by selling illegal products. Are you sure they didn't buy the stuff from Hershman. Some of his magnets are nowhere near spec, 16D mags anyway, although they may be legal at some tracks.

[arreaux]

Well I ran in to the guy who had the problem with the motors.
He said that one had a slightly tighter air gap.
And the other had a stack length of .590".

But to come on here and say Monty produces illegal motors is pretty bold!

This very well could have been a isolated incidence?

[glazump]

Is it sum kind of curse to use "spell check" when righting in?

[wayne h]

Originally posted by glazump
Is it sum kind of curse to use "spell check" when righting in?

is it SOME kind of curse to use "grammar-check" when WRITTING in?

all i can say is i ain't never heard nothing like that never.

now, back to the matter at hand. your first line of recourse should not be to drag monty's business through the muck on this board. have you spoken to monty in person, on the phone, or via email, about these allegations? until you have, i will be deleting your post as flaming is in direct violation of the house rules.

having dealt with monty on numerous occasions over the past few years (and failing to see how he might benefit from providing illegal motors to customers), i am VERY skeptical that he would do so intentionally.

wayne h.


monty: i just realised YOU are the only guy that can edit this board!!!

[GaryH]

I don't think Monty, a reputable businessman in this hobby, would knowing build a motor that would not pass tech in any race unless the purchaser had certain criteria he wanted met in the building of said motor. I have Monty build my x12 motors with glued magnets honed to my specs using a ProSlot endbell with Kelly can. This is not "legal" in USRA, but can be used in TSRA(Texas) and our local races. I don't attend any USRA races.


If an armature has a short stack length it could be a problem with who actually wound it especially if the arms are bought in large quantities without coms trued or balanced like some motor builders do. I can see somebody that buys arms in bulk letting one slip by when building motors in mass if they weren't specifically looking for abnormalities in product that usually comes meeting specs. Selling motors by the hundreds mistakes can happen. I bought a Champion high timed x-12 motor with SQM magnets that had no magnet clips or glue holding the magnets in place. Powering up the motor the magnets rubbed. No big deal because I was going to epoxy the mags in and true the com before putting it in a car. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Champion motor to set up if I were putting a car together on a tight budget.

Finger, I hope you can afford a lawyer. If you keep it up you might find yourself on the wrong end of a law suit some day brought by somebody in this hobby or out in the real world where people don't take kindly to being slandered and would welcome the opportunity to take some of your money.

Just my .02 worth,
GaryH

[Jawn]

Originally posted by wayne h

now, back to the matter at hand. your first line of recourse should not be to drag monty's business through the muck on this board. have you spoken to monty in person, on the phone, or via email, about these allegations?


Almost certainly, he has not. By his own admission, he was not personally affected by the alleged out-of-spec products. If he HAD been the one so affected, and he had actually bothered to speak directly with Monty, and assuming further still that there was any legitimacy to the allegations, it is reasonable to assume that Monty would have made every effort to make things right.

So, no. This was just some less-than-literate troll, posted by one of those Internet bottom-feeders who get a twisted sense of power from typing such things, or by some fool who thinks that this is a safe way to "get even" for some perceived misdeed.

<sarcasm>
Boy! I guess I'll never buy any BOW products now. Not after what Finger said on OWH.
</sarcasm>

Sorry guys. I'm just bored enough this evening that I couldn't resist rising to the bait and taking a swipe at it.

[Monty @ B.O.W.]

Hey Gang,

I've let this one sit for a while to see if there would be any furthur posts, but its bedtime so here's my reply.

First off, I wouldn't think of deleting the post or the thread, as it gives me a good chance to speak about tech failures in general, as well as the specifics here.

Second, 'Finger' could have been generally nastier, but perhaps to do so would have been stretching his literacy.

Finally, I of course have to thank those of you who jumped in to defend me, even though I'm supposed to get first crack on answering new threads :-)

Now, the story as I know it.

Yes, there were two motors DQ'ed from the D can classes at the WSC. One, driven by a NorCal amateur class racer, had a can bent severely enough to compromise the airgap. Consider this tiny diagram of an arm surrounded by magnets: (o) Now imagine that I knew enough of this computer stuff to successfully italicize the parenthesis: You would see what I observed. The gap was legal across the center and .015" MORE than legal on the larger diagonal. It was similarly undersize on the smaller diagonal. Since it must be a minimum size all the way through the arc to be legal, it was ruled illegal. After it was shown to me, I sympathized with the racer and offered a new setup. He allowed as he had certainly run other of my motors during the prior year, with no problems, and seemed satisfied. If I'm guilty of anything, its that I haven't sent the replacement setup yet, but having been reminded, I will in the morning.

It has since occurred to me that I've never seen a can that bent before, so I grabbed one off the bench earlier this evening and squeezed it across its diagonal corners until I acheived the same total deviation in the airgap. At that point, I can't get an endbell on it! Very strange indeed. I'm VERY leery of speculating any furthur, but I sure can't see having knowingly assembled such a thing.

The other motor involved a shorter than legal armature, but it was more like .002" short - on one pole. Moreover, it wasn't the original arm for the setup. The racer in question, a SoCal expert with extensive experience, had included it with his monthly shipment of motor rebuilds as a replacement for a worn out arm. It wasn't the same make as I usually use, and I'm kicking myself for not measureing it, but it was a rebuild of a previously legal motor. The armature was an over - the - counter specimen, so this is where I warn all the readers here to check the dimensions of what they buy. Production armatures do occasionally turn out to be (marginally) short. I'm told that any of the various manufacturers will replace out of spec arms, and I'll certainly be screening more carefully in the future.

Just as an observation, short stack length arms seem to occur much more frequently on 16d's. I don't know if thats because there is more stack length to begin with, or because manufacturers feel that there is less concern about motors run in slower classes. I hope not, as the more stringent tech inspections seem to occur in these classes!

I'll be leaving the thread open so that anyone who desires any more details can feel free to ask.

[multiracer]

Monty,
Quizz the gentleman about his zapping habits. If he took his motor out and left the solder "blobs" on the can, walked over to the counter and got it zapped as a whole motor , chances are the "hit" from the zapper bent the setup over as you found it. This is why the endbell still fit his motor and not yours. With the magnet clips still in the setup you can bend them and not disturb the overall function other than gross misalignment between the arm and the magnets.
I had this happen to a Deathstar one evening being too lazy to clean it up before an experimental zapping as a complete sealed unit.
Ron

[Marshall Racing]

Monty... that was a great reply!:cool:

[eap9]

Hello Monty.

Simply put, this is a clear case of "Trial By Publicity". If he was decent enough, he should have contacted you privately to air his comment.

What he did was accuse you in public without giving you the benefit of the doubt. In short, he has already charged you guilty of the crime even without a proper inquisition.

Bad move on his part! The least he could do now is apologize for damaging your reputation unnecessarily.

In our country, his move would have been viewed as a clear afront or challenge to your manhood. How we deal with it, I will just leave it to your imagination.

Regards,

Enrico

[finger]

Monte and I are talking and resolveing the problem. Being new to this site I did not know you could send private messages. But I had every right to use this message board because yes I was personaly affected. Two of my best freinds were stripped of victory's for things not under their control. Bolth of the said motors were off the shelf performance motors by best of the west purchased the thursday before the race at Downtown Don's shop in concord California. Customers should not have to check second hand performace products for legality in compatition. Alex may be considerd an expert at his local tracks but he entered the amature divisions that weakend. And knowing that parts art not produced perfectly there should be allowances for parts out of spec. In at least the amature classes at said big events.

[Mr Tim]

Originally posted by finger
... I had every right to use this message board because yes I was personaly affected.

Actually, you didn't have every right to use this message board. When you register to use this board, you agree to abide by the house rules. You only use this board by virtue of the privileges afforded you by the board owners.

As a result, you have only the rights that you agreed to have, and they don't include publicly defaming other people.

I have to agree with the majority on this one. (Btw, nice response, Monty.)

[GearBear]

The rules that caused the racer with the bent can to be DQ'ed is one of those things that makes me wonder why we make rules like that. When you are talking a difference of .001" after a race making you legal or not on something like an airgap my question is why do we really care? Unless I'm mistaken having too tight an airgap will do one of two things. Either cause the motor to lock up when it gets hot, or increase your brakes. On the other side, too wide an airgap and you may have a bullistic motor but no brakes. Hmmm... Seems to me there is no advantage one way or the other so get rid of the rule. Plus the fact that a good shot to the back of the car could easily change the shape of a can enough to cause this difference just makes the rule a waste.

Too short of a stack length on the other hand is something entrirely different. In this case the only one responsible is the manufacturer. Unless someone took a dremel to the stack and then rebalance it there is no way this should happen. Seems like an awful lot of work for a race with toy cars! ;) I know I have never measured the stack length on an arm I purchased over the counter. Nor do I think I should have to. The arm would have been tagged as a legal arm and IMHO that should be good enough. I'm glad we don't have these rules in the PNW AMCA series. Makes things a lot easier on us!

[finger]

Yes I did have every right. The message board is called ask Monte is it not. I asked him a lagitemit question about how he produces his product. The fact that all off you think so much of him your willing to hold his member for him is not my problem.

On second thought don't bite me youd probbly give me somthing:p

[XSlotRacer15]

Finger,
Sounds to me like your friend pulled a fast one. They took a motor that was prepared by a solid blue printer and made it a piece of crap. Once bent in that fashion you are lucky if your motor can compete. I have a few suggestions for you.

#1 tell your friend to keep the motor out of the vise.
#2 GED
#3 a straight slot car is a happy one

X

[Gersty]

...............just what we needed, the second coming of LR!
Finger, being new here, you may want to reconsider some of the things that you have thrown about on this board. In my opinion, Monty is above reproach by you, or anyone, when it comes to most thing Slot related, and especially Motor Blueprinting. He is kind enough to take time out of his busy day, for FREE, I might add, to answer any all all questions posed to him on OWH. If you have an axe to grind with anyone, this is NOT the place to do so. If you had read the house rules, you would know that. There are 2 sides to every story, and, quite frankly, I have been around this game long enough to know that your story doesn't add up. By the way, nice spelling! :rolleyes:

[Racer-S]

Everyone makes mistakes, Finger, and I was willing to overlook the mammoth one you made when you started this thread. Unfortunately, your last two replies have shown that it wasn't in the "heat of the moment" - it's a pattern.

What you've done is damage your own reputation. If, after finding out the actual facts, you posted an apology or even a retraction, it would soon be forgotten. Now, however, since you refuse to accept correction or instruction then future posts by you will likely be viewed with this thread in mind.

One last thing - repetition doesn't equal truth. No matter how many times you say you have every right to post what you did, you don't. The house rules Mr. Tim mentioned are, in part:

By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

Your first post violated the last on the list. Libel, as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary is:
a. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
b. The act of presenting such material to the public.

Your last post violated the first, second, and third.

Where your reputation goes from here is up to you. I, for one, sincerely hope you take the high road.

Barry

[Rotorranch]

quote:
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By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
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Gee....that kinda takes all the fun out of it, don't it? ;)

I'd suggest Finger use his speel chucker. I don't put much value in posts from folks that don't have enough sense to spell.

Rotor

[THOBART]

Ok so Finger said somthing stupid (nothing new, happens every day). Guys remember that if he wants to make an *** of himself he can, just let him and stop egging him on. I don't think he really hurt Monty's reputation very much. This is supposed to be fun remember??

See ya
Tony

P.S. NIce reply Monty

[THOBART]

Ok so Finger said somthing stupid (nothing new, happens every day). Guys remember that if he wants to make an *** of himself he can, just let him and stop egging him on. I don't think he really hurt Monty's reputation very much. This is supposed to be fun remember??

See ya
Tony

P.S. NIce reply Monty

[team burrito]

...pppppppppppPPPPPPPPPPPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTtttttttttttttttttt ttttttttttt!!! (ouch) :D

[Monty @ B.O.W.]

Gee Russ,

Bet that felt good...

And with that, folks, and provided I can figure out the controls, we can call an end to this thread. Finger and I are now using e-mail and he has some info he obviously didn't before.

Thanks for all the support.