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Vallu
10-30-2002, 04:24 AM
Who's coming?


From Finland there are two nutheads coming.
Gugu also told me he would attend.

See you, Antti

Slik
10-30-2002, 04:43 AM
I really wanna go. So if I go, Harter, Acello, Burger will most likely be there.... Maybe even Greco will go...

Slik
10-30-2002, 04:43 AM
OOO Yea... When is it?

hesketh
10-30-2002, 06:29 AM
Always the last weekend in Feb., which would make it 2/19 through 2/23. I bet Doug will run a schedule like the NENATS, with the addition of maybe E24 ?
PK

mongomania
10-30-2002, 08:45 PM
maybe the race should be re-named
the erkle driving experience - erkle was the man at the ne nats!

and of course the catch phrase would be : are you experienced

Flash24
10-31-2002, 06:48 AM
heard last night that Team DQ, from Slots-a-Lot is comin' back for more!: ;) :D :cool:

Bent rim
10-31-2002, 08:34 AM
Those guys are great racers, I do not blame them for what their chassis builder did. They all drove great!!!!!!! My apologies to Derek, Chef and Zach for not catching it in pre-tech rather then post tech!!! :(

Flash24
10-31-2002, 08:46 AM
Bent.......there were no hard feelings expressed last night and non were meant to be conveyed in my post......had hoped the smilely faces would have made the point......PJ runs the best racing program for the best racers..........today I ordered the tee shirts for the Barnburner.........black with a huge DQ on them.......if you want one let me know....:D :D

hesketh
10-31-2002, 09:17 AM
The unfortunate part of all this is that the G12 rules are vague, poorly written and create multiple interpretations depending on who is enforcing them. The static bracing as used was legal last year and this year it isn't. The written rule hasn't changed only how tech has chosen to enforce it. So that before we blame the builder too much for this problem, we need to look at the rule and how it is written and enforced. It seems as though the USRA is tightening the screws down on G12 and what is an acceptable interpretation of the rules. Thats fine except when you are incapable of actually finding out what is legal and isn't by reading the rules. This situation is a perfect example of that. One last point on this topic is that if the rules are going to be interpreted this way then it is essential that a thorough tech, before the race, is needed. The culpret here is not the tech inspector, the race director, the racer or the builder, its the poorly written rules.
PK

DDDDDDerek
10-31-2002, 05:11 PM
As of course my DQ was hard as it took a long time to beat ET's record and I did it in the best fashon. I will be back for the Barnburner for retibution. I will still be running my usual program and NOTHING WILL BE ILLEGAL. My goal is two in a row and to get the record.

Gary NJ
10-31-2002, 05:25 PM
You go, D-man....:)

PRIMERIB
11-01-2002, 06:14 AM
Good for you Derek:D :D :D :D :D

Chubby
11-01-2002, 01:34 PM
The whole slots a lot gang will be there. It ell Be

Joe SSS,DDDerek,Kenny P,Chef,Zach,(Mark S, if am box is on a sunday.)

And Probaly many more.....


joe SSS

CrazyRacer
11-01-2002, 03:18 PM
Ille there wit the slots alot gang.......as long as i can do god in school......lol

Bent rim
11-10-2002, 08:30 AM
I hope Derek does win the Barn Burner! He is a great kid and it killed me to DQ him. Get ready for a long pre tech on all gp12 cars this year.
Paul, I do not think you can Blame the USRA on this one. The braces in Question were not allowed at the 2001 nats and most of those guys knew it! They had to remove them then. The problem that has come up is the NE Nats and the Barn Burner are running the same rules as the nats. The comment that came up was "this is not a USRA sanctioned event" while that is true. What rules am I supposed to go by? Either we follow the rules or we don't. Who decides what rules to follow and what rules we don't?
I am not trying to be nit picky! If he lost his driver or a front wheel during the race, I would not DQ anyone. Motor and Chassis infractions can not be allowed.
My conversation with Chris G before I went on vacation, he was accusing me of DQing a Slot A lot boy, to give one of my own the win. I think everyone knows I would never do that! I have DQed my own guys in the past. (Remember JP, he took 4lane stickers off the car, on his way to tech and came up light)
The relationship between PJ and Slots a lot has always been very close and I'm sure it will continue!!!

hesketh
11-10-2002, 09:56 AM
Actually Doug I think they were DQ'd at the 2002 Nats, but had been legal at the 2001 Nats and even at the 2002 Barnburner. The question is what is a static brace, nowhere does it say that the brace can only be parallel to the solder joint and braces frequently are perpendicular to the joint they are intended to strenghten. I know that there was some suggestion that it stiffened the rear but considering how short it was and that it occurred outside the "W" it is doubtful that it caused any stiffining at all. The reason it was bounced at the 2002 Nats was because it was decided at the tech table that it was not allowed this time.
The rules weren't changed only the interpretation. I don't for a moment think that the results were rigged at the NENATS and we know that Chris can get a little emotional at times. But I do believe that G12 rules as written are a big mess and are in need of a complete editing and rewrite. Of course you should run the races by the USRA rules but the rules should be clear and enforcable so you or any race director can run a race without controversy.That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Paul

DDDDDDerek
11-10-2002, 12:38 PM
I actually agree with Paul. The rule has no proper interpretaion. It sould be re-written for proper idea on the rule. I have been reading the rules and I now understand all of them. When I see Bracing, I see Jeremy's car from the Barnburner and also see a piece of wire going across the chassis.

Thank you Doug for the Kind words. You must have been thinking that after the bikini contest :p . My focus now is on the Barnburner as I really enjoyed how my program was working the whole day. Props will still go to Johnny as he had one hell of a run. Like I started saying at Port Jeff and I will say now. I will be back and what doesnt kill me will just make me stronger. I have 2 spots saved @ Slots-A-Lot with my 3 other Barnburner plaques (2k1 4th place am box., 2k2 TQ & 1st am. grp 12).

weedracer
11-10-2002, 01:00 PM
In your post above you said: "nowhere does it say that the brace can only be parallel to the solder joint".

Nowhere does it say that it can meander all over the car either, which is what could happen with the sometimes creative rule interpretations we see.

You and I had this talk outside the raceway...remember my mentioning how far rearward I've been seeing front wheels due to the lengthening of front wheel mounts?

The various rules related to bracing say: Page 30, part F) Modifications

1) "Static bracing consisting of PIANO WIRE may be added to solder joints only."

Not only were the braces in question made of brass, but they "strayed" from the solder joint when the rounded the bend onto the side rails. If they were two inches long and half way to the front of the car, you would certainly say they were illegal, right? Well, they weren't, they were about 5/8 of an inch long, but still too long since they shouldn't have been going forward at all.

1a) "Brass weights must be solidly, rigidly attached,and not used as a brace."

Now I see the vagueries there too, but when working with the rules we had, you can see how the conclusion was arrived at.

For what it's worth, it was the hardest thing I've ever had to help decide, and I was somewhat inclined to let it slide based on the fact that it wasn't the Nats, and it wasn't a blatant performance enhancer. It was mentioned however that that very car...not one like it, but that very chassis was rejected at tech in the past at the Nats(at PJ I think).

Derek is a nice kid and good racer....that day he became a renowned good sport too....not a bad afternoon's work.

http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smokin.gif

hesketh
11-10-2002, 04:54 PM
Charlie, the only thing that is at fault here is the rules and the ambiguity that surrounds them. I am not questioning what the tech inspector concluded but the state of the rules he had to work with. I would have had the same conclusion if I were teching especially after having had to change the braces myself at the NATs. Your comment about the front wheel mounts is a good case in point and there are many other gray areas in the rules just like that one. All I am saying is that the G12 rules are written poorly and in need of a comprehensive edit and rewrite. All the other classes have the benefit of simple easy to enforce rules and never have any controversy as a result. Now that SPEC 15 exists we don't need the continuing charade of G12 ruleswhich are supposed to be some "boxstock" derivative. If you honestly sit down and read the G12 rules they are ridiculus when compared to all the other classes' rules. I must admit that after all these years I am losing my taste for G12, after running the higher end classes the last year the simplicity is refreshing as is the ease with which a competitive program can be put together. The indiviual components of a G12 program may be relatively inexpensive but the quantity of the items needed and the time needed to find the perfect combination is daunting, thats why no one wants to move up in G12 but in the other classes its heads up racing until you get to the NATS or a limited number of big races. We have probably beat this dead horse into equine paillard ( just to keep you gourmands on your toes,LOL) but as I said in a previous post NO ONE is to blame for this just a crappy set of ruleswhich werelayered in over many years.
Paul

weedracer
11-10-2002, 06:56 PM
"I must admit that after all these years I am losing my taste for G12 "

I knew it would get to you sooner or later....lol

http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smokin.gif

P.S. I agree about the way the rules are written, I think you can expect some revisions in the new book.

DDDDDDerek
11-10-2002, 07:38 PM
I HOPE

I want to understand the rules better but without a better wording then how the hell can I.

tonyt
11-10-2002, 09:08 PM
Doug,
have you set the dates for the barnburner yet?

Bent rim
11-10-2002, 10:52 PM
The Barn Burner is the last weekend in Feb. Feb 19th to the 23rd. As always the AM GP 12 race will be that sat morning.

brian444
11-11-2002, 12:48 PM
is pro following amatuer or friday night? im going to check my class schedule and do my damndest to get to this race. I think there is much in the way of motor developing to be done with this stuff, but im gonna try and do it. ill see you port jeff guys probably in the next two weeks. finals suck. lol.

-Brian

Jeff Bechtel
11-11-2002, 03:17 PM
Charlie,
I have to differ with your statement that this was not enforced at the Nats. I know for a fact of at least two or three cars that were bounced in pre-race tech for this very infraction. This was enforced at the 2000, 2001, and the 2002 Nats. I teched the cars at the 2000 and 2001 Nats and I made the racers take them off. I know Dave who helped you in the tech line this year caught a couple of them this year as well. As you quoted the rule. Piano wire only and may strengthen the solder joint only. By going down the rail, it no longer strengthens the solder joint only. Remember, the one rule that should clarify everything is the one about, "if it's not mentioned, it's not legal". Does it say that you can go down the rail, NO! It is not that the rules are that vague, it's that everyone is trying to make more out of them. The main rule that should be followed when building anything in GP-12 class is... if it did not come on the chassis, motor, etc, then don't do it! The chassis rules clearly says that it must be built exactly as the manufacturer builds it. If you are in doubt go to your local raceway and look at an assembled chassis. Why are you guys trying to make this harder than it is?

hesketh
11-11-2002, 05:26 PM
Just as an example,

"H) Lightweight Components
Since the GP-12 class is intended to be an entry level class, many of the rules are designed to discourage the use of complicated, state of the art , or expensive components. Therefore, special lightweight components are specifically prohibited , including:
1. Magnet wire or magnet type wireas a substitute lead wire
2. Hollow or special lightweight axles."

Now based on the above, a component modified to be special lightweight is illegal and based on the " if its not mentioned its illegal" concept it needs to be specifically allowed such as the specific allowance for drilled gears and drilled wheels. Therfore, if a component other then those two components are drilled it would be illegal. Erkles Pro G12 car was illegal because it had a drilled guide nut. In reality who cares whether he had a drilled guide nut but according to the rules it was illegal. There is no "lack of competitive advantage" exclusion in the rules.

Before, Doug and the boys come after me loaded for bear I would point out that Erkle deserves the win and I am only using this as an example of the nonsencical results a direct reading of the rules can create. I still think they are a mess and create numerous situations for rule creation at the tech table because of the poor drafting they represent.
Paul

ps Jeff I still dont understand how running in a Pro class, when you dont meet the criteria for being a Pro, causes you to be henceforth designated a Pro but I guess that is just another of the mysteries of USRA rules interpretation. Maybe someday yoiu can explain that one to me.
Paul

weedracer
11-12-2002, 05:44 AM
You may have misunderstood me up there......I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't enforced , I pointed out that it came to my attention that the very car that got DQ'd at the Northeast Nats was entered by someone else at the Nats at Port Jeff, and it was deemed illegal because of the braces.....by you I now know.

I really don't know the circumstances that brought the same car back with the erroneous parts re-attached and it doesn't matter anymore.

It must have been what Gary NJ would refer to as a "Gomesian slip".:D

http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smokin.gif

Jeff Bechtel
11-12-2002, 10:35 AM
Yep, that's who it was.

DDDDDDerek
11-12-2002, 11:45 AM
After the race my car was checked, as well as chefs and zachs. Was Johnnys car ever torn down after the race as I believe i never saw that after my DQ.

weedracer
11-12-2002, 01:48 PM
Yes it was.

http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smokin.gif

Slik
11-12-2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by brian444
is pro following amatuer or friday night? im going to check my class schedule and do my damndest to get to this race. I think there is much in the way of motor developing to be done with this stuff, but im gonna try and do it. ill see you port jeff guys probably in the next two weeks. finals suck. lol.

-Brian

I dont think your gonna miss this race, after you missed RGEO...

Chef
11-12-2002, 09:04 PM
:D Flash I also ordered shirts for the barnburner.
The front has a BIG DQ but the back has a big FU


Chef

Bent rim
11-13-2002, 09:57 AM
Maybe, I should have a shirt made. It would be one, you would not forget. :D :D ;)

Flash24
11-13-2002, 10:14 AM
The Barnburner is one of the best races of the year. Now it can become the best slot racers fashion event of the year! "The Legend of Big Al" shirts will be available. Sounds like more to come. :D :D

Chef
11-13-2002, 03:29 PM
Hey Doug,
Maybe at the barnburner we can do a teeshirt concourse.

Chef

:D

ViperJerry
11-13-2002, 04:29 PM
Make it a girl's wet tee shirt contest and I'll be there :D

Bent rim
11-13-2002, 08:31 PM
A wet T shirt contest in New York, in February! Wow, you could put someones eye out with that!!!!!!!;)