Perimeter chassis

[endbelldrive]

Hey Monty: An ancient history question came up on a Vintage slots thread. When were the first perimeter chassis built? What class were they first used in?
Thanks a lot,
ebd

[Monty @ B.O.W.]

My racing history has a big blank spot in the mid 80's, which is when the perimeter became popular. My own reading, like Phil and Paul, seems to place it in 1985, as traditional pan cars dominated the 1984 Nats.

Just as important to the development of the chassis was the trend to smaller, lighter motors and higher downforce bodies which allowed the lighter weight cars to work.

Most important of all, however, was the introduction of newer, smoother, more highly banked tracks, a development that coincided with the settlement of Hasse Nielsson in the US. As the late 80's passed, Steve Ogilvie pioneered the full punched 90 on a King track, and the rest, as they say, was history.

[slick7rudy]

Greetings:
My experience with Perimiters started on a plane trip after the 1983 U.S. Nationals.
In a brainstorming meeting between Fred Hood and myself we designed a perimiter concept, which we prototyped and gave to Csaba Zekelihidy the following year at the 1984 nationals.
Csaba TQed and set several world records in the months that followed.
It was right after this that Koford invented the perimiter chassis and produced a chem-milled unit in late 84/early 85, but the competitive designs were hand cut at this time.
We, at Slick 7 finally produced a perimiter chassis design in mid 1985, based on a modified version of the 1983 concept (which is actually closer to today's designs with tapered rails!).
Perimiter designs actually date back to the mid 60's and P.A. Watson told me about perimiter designs being run in Texas in 1973 time frame.
These cars were all intended for Gr-7 wing car racing.

Rudy

[Larry Geddes]

Rudy ---- I have a brand-new, in-the-bag S7-65 center (see pic) that says Csaba won the '84 Nats with this design. "Chubba's" plans call for small brass pans behind the wingtips & pivoted "chickenfoot" rear body mounts using S7 .047 tubing. With a Camen Schkee body, this combo really handled. This center also worked well with full batpans (S7 chem-milled steel). Maybe Csaba used a perimeter in '85? :confused:

[RocketRod]

I have to agree with Rudy, seems like the big talk at the 84 Nats in Clovis, Ca was the perimeter that Csaba had. If I remember correctly, the weight was in the 50 gram range. I would have to believe that he could have also run it at the 85 nats as well as many other racers.

[oldweirdherald]

Here's a link to flyracing's photo gallery, with Dennis Cook's photos at the '84 Nats in Clovis CA.

This page has several shots of Csaba's Nats winner, as well as Laster's chassis and Joel's Hansen chassis that I still have today.

Flyracing's Photo Gallery - '84 Nats Pix (http://www.oldweirdherald.com/owhgallery/flyracing?&page=2)

http://www.oldweirdherald.com/owhgallery/albums/flyracing/aao.jpg

Csaba Szekelyhidi's 1984 Nats winning car.

Rudy - I don't think I've ever remembered to bring it up, which surprises me, since we talked for a while at the BP Nats, but I was kinda hoping you'd remember me talking to you about my perimeter chassis design in the motel room in Clovis, I believe at the warm-up race about 3 to 6 months before the '84 Nats there.

Please see the thread, in the Vintage Board, refering to the perimeter chassis question, where I posted my little story here:
Peremeter Chassis Origins? (http://www.oldweirdherald.com/slotcartalk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1679&perpage=15&pagenumber=2)

Of course I remember it well, since I look back on it as a possible "claim to fame" of sorts, or at least a contribution I could feel part of, to slot racing history (besides being old & weird).

I was hoping that I could have provided the initial idea, or at least a spark or influence that led to you building the prototypes, and later the production perimeter chassis. Could it at least be possible that my design gave you the idea or inspiration, without you really remembering our discussion that night???

Partial credit or at least benefit of the doubt would mean a lot to me! :D

Man, do I wish I had just built one a year prior when I was doodling around with the idea... :( I coulda been a contenda!

[MSWISS]

I built the first perimeter in late 82/early 83 with the thought of using
the 2 existing straight edges of the 3 inch sheets of spring steel available
at the time and just wanting to try something different.It still had pans
and pretty similar body movement.The first race it was mediocre(very loose).
I narrowed the rails for the next G27 race and it TQ'ed and won beating some
Csaba built cars.I won my first open race(The King Classic) I entered with one later that year and qualified 5th in semi-pro at the nats.In realty it was a good car but not quite on par with the best Pro built conventional cars of the time(Pfeiffer,Csaba,Stevens)
In 84 Csaba was the fastest guy around with his lightweight versions
of "conventional" cars(the center section pictured previously combined with lightweight pans)winning the Nats.Stu Koford and I realized we had to put our cars on diets.Unwilling to let Stu cannibalize one of my existing cars,he cut a new model perimeter using simple solid mounts.It ran 2.62 the first time out breaking the World Record by half a tenth.A minute later,Csaba then cut him running an awesome 2.51 using his highly refined conventional car.In the meantime,I built my new lightweight style perimeter using floating mounts inspired my the square brass tube used as an upstop on a Parma Brasskar.
It turned out to be a more forgiving race car than Stu's solid mount design and I managed a 2nd at the 84 World's Warm-up race at Elmsford to Laster.
I refined/lightened the car later that year going from .035 steel to .042.Soon
I was setting a new G27 world record every week at Grand Raceway and Csaba had to give in.He built his first perimeter in late 84/early 85 and raced
it at a USRA points race teching it in with masking tape on the bottom to hide
it's design which up until then he had dismissed as a fad.By the 85 Nats,everyone in the Pro Main ran one.

[G27racing]

Stu Kofords was the first one I saw. It was at the 84 Nats in Clovis.

[slick7rudy]

It seems that there is confusion on my post.

We showed the perimiter design to Csaba during the 1984 Nats. In fact it was after the 1984 Nats, on the following Monday at Fred's house.
He later cut some himself, and those are the ones that were seen with the bottom taped up.

I remember he was surprised at seeing our perimiter chassis.

The idea did not come up 3-6 months before the 1984 nats, but on the plane trip comming back from the 1983 Nats.(12 months before the 1984 Nats)

It seems to me that it was when Csaba ran the perimiter, and set some records that everybody started trying it.

There were many perimiter designs before that, but they did not set the trend.

The first perimiter chassis design that I know of are the ones run in San Francisco, made from Piano wire, and in in-line form . Raced in 1966-67 time frame. It was these chassis that gave us our ideas in 1983.
At the time I did not know about Mike's experiments in Chicago.

Rudy

[MSWISS]

Rudy
You are extremely confused.Along with the heavier versions raced in 82 &
83.I as stated ran one at the Worlds warm-up which was 2-3 months
before the Nats.When people asked who finished behind Laster,racers said
some kid nobody heard of from Chicago running a goofy car.Les Wright still
has a picture in his box of me with dark hair and a respirator cutting a fresh
center at Elmsford so I could race both Pro & Semi-pro at the Worlds.
Csaba only finally cut one after a racer with only a couple of years experience
(myself)could run with him.
You gave me the whole Frisco rap when you saw my version with pans at the 83 Nats in Centerville.
I wasn't in Frisco in 67,I wasn't on the plane with you & Fred Hood,I wasn't
privvey to what was swimming in your brain but:
1-I made them first in the eighties without any previous inspiration.
2-I raced them first.
3-I was successful with them first.
4-Koford Eng. sold them first.
5-Thinking you thought of them first is not an invention.
6-End of story.

[Phil Smith]

Or possibly not! Waiting to see if history revisionist Mike Swiss lays claim to that as well. (Just kidding Mike!)

[slick7rudy]

Just trying to be honest on the events that led to our car.

I know how sensitive Mike is on this issue... So I will drop it, I have better things to do..

Rudy

[oldweirdherald]

Hey Mike!

While you were cutting out that perimeter chassis to race at the Worlds at Elmsford...

are you positive you didn't accidently glance in Andy's box, and get the perimeter idea from Wasserman???

Just wondering if that future Florida clock stopper might have been in Andy's box years ahead of that other event you contested!

I'M KIDDING!!!!!! :D

Time to lighten up a tad there, Mike! Have a grape or two! ;)

(and in no way do I mean to make light of your claims - I'm only yanking your chain in hopes of chilling this thread out a bit, ya folla?)

I really didn't think that Rudy's recollection of events contridicted any of your statements, Mike, if you reread his post. It simply shows that different people were developing ideas along similar lines at AROUND the same time frame in different parts of the country, as has often happened in this hobby and as has happened often in any competative sport.

Nobody is trying to take credit away from yours or anyone else's contributions, we are all only curious as to the history and developement of our hobby. To that end, threads like this one are of great value in learning or helping to remember some of the history and developement of this hobby.

Thanks to both Mike and Rudy for sharing your memories and experiences of these events with OWH readers, it is interesting... even if it does tend to toss a little cold water on my hopes that I had at least a possible influence! :(


So.... Monty, since this is your board... do you think this thread has about run it's course? Maybe time to call a truce and slap a lock on this baby.

[MSWISS]

Paul,
I'm sorry for my sensitivity on this subject but I still remember the 271 broken Dremel 409 discs I "caught" with my face in this era(Or was it 272?)and somehow credit for this pretty significant innovation was going to go to
someone who "came up with the concept" but didn't have enough faith in it to cut a prototype and didn't start selling one until a year after we were already had & Csaba who was my loudest detractor, insulting the design every chance he could until he realized he had to jump on the perimeter
bandwagon.
Of course I realize with "lightweight" becoming the rage and smoother/more
banked tracks being built, perimeters would of eventually happened sooner or later but I was willing to suck the 1095 steel dust first to find out.

As far as all the Andy nonsense,a lot of people spent a lot of time and money
chasing something that was not acheivable on a Hasse track.Track power
was increased and at least 1 racer was a half inch away from having a lam
hitting him in the eye because another track owner would manipulate a timer to insure he had "the fastest track" and would get the Nats.Hence my sensitivity on that subject.

Just the same,you and Rudy are right,it's time to drop this.

[Bent rim]

I guess that explains it! :D :D ;)

[Mark Woday]

Mike's calm demeanor?

[oldweirdherald]

http://www.oldweirdherald.com/images/swiss.jpg

Fortunately, Mike's new hypersensitive photo-radiation impervious astro-blaster 2000 goggles, AND the advent of Laser & EDM cut chassis, have saved Mike from continued risk of suffering from carbon discosis.

However, his sensitive nature, coupled with his sense of humor, have not guarenteed Mike to be impervious to potential threat of attack.

In 1999 it was the dreaded Swiss Potato Head:
http://www.oldweirdherald.com/images/spudswss4.jpg
and in 2001, the attack of the flying produce incident:

http://www.oldweirdherald.com/owhgallery/albums/album01/aok.thumb.jpg

which was followed up in 2002 with escalated weaponry:

http://www.oldweirdherald.com/owhgallery/albums/album01/arb.thumb.jpg

and for a while there, we all thought that Mike had a bomb strapped around his chest, and could blow the whole place up any second!

http://www.oldweirdherald.com/owhgallery/albums/album01/aow.thumb.jpg

but lest we all think that Mike is some sort of party poop, I am reminded of the 2001 Nats, where he disappeared before I could get the podium photo, only to return with a carload of beer for all, or the times he bought ice cream for the crowd...

or even when he had an unfortunately bad main in 2002, but was all unselfish smiles when his teammate got the win...

http://www.oldweirdherald.com/owhgallery/albums/album01/aqa.thumb.jpg

Yeah... we love ya Mike, even if you are a bit intense at times! :eek:

Hey! Does anybody remember who was the first slot racer who.... ahh, nevermind! :rolleyes:

[Zippity]

For the record, I designed the first perimeter chassis in the fall of 1968, but due to the lack of financial support, I never registered my patent.

The chassis was built from #8 fencing wire that I had 'lifted' from a sheep paddock behind the barn which housed our 2 lane 320' road course.

We set a new 'world record' of 87 seconds running a 13U Mitsubishi motor.

If anyone wants to challenge this record, photographic evidence is posted on the Farming News Calendar's online archive.

[RocketRod]

I HAD THE FIRST PERIMETER CHASSIS IN 1964!!.

This car was introduced at the race track in Modesto, Calif. It had a Kemtron Motor and consisted of a tube running from the front guide to the motor. It run an exclusive Ford GT 40 body. The perimeter design came from the amount of time I spent walking around the outside of the track with it after retrieving it from its astromical of amount of offs it had.

[Slapshot]

The question is would this 65-66 chassis be a perimater chassis in it's inline stage?

http://getyourwebsitehere.com/scratchbuilt/my_collection/images/chs_0054.jpg
:D :D
Raymond

[Bill from NH]

Raymond, well maybe, but who can document this chassis' age and as to when the modifications were made to it? I found a Chris Chan arlicle in the 10/67 issue of Model Car & Track for a western style "Pro Perimeter" chassis. And yes, it's an inline design. I haven't found anything earlier.