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View Full Version : B- Production(LMP) with Contenders or Falcons?



Brian Meharry
12-05-2010, 07:13 PM
For flat track racing do you prefer to run B-Production or LMP cars with Falcons or Contender motors? The Lap times are pretty close between the two, and the cost of a good B-Production car is close to an Open 12.

Zippity
12-05-2010, 07:22 PM
Falcons - love them :)

Haven't tried the others :(

oldweirdherald
12-05-2010, 07:50 PM
Both :)

In the PNW, we run Falcons in our LMP class, and Contenders are our "Group 10" - similar to B Production class.

I really recommend that if you are starting out a new program or series, that you begin with Falcons. Keep the cost low to build up as many racers as possible. Once you get a good solid base of regular racers (like 2 full mains worth?)... THEN think about adding a Contender motor class. What would you really rather have: - twice as many racers? or half the racers, but running slightly faster lap times?

Falcon motors provide as close of racing as you're ever going to get - and for a very low cost.

In the PNW, the Contender (Gp 10 / B Production) class is for GTP bodies, in USRA I believe it is for LMP (too lazy to check). This makes a relatively inexpensive transition for those wanting to expand into the new class, as they can simply add a new motor to an existing or backup car, if on a tight budget.

Open Group 12 or GT-12 is then a bigger jump, with speeds as well as costs falling somewhere between the Contenders & Eurosports.

I doubt you'll hear your Falcon motored car saying "I could have been a Contender!" ;)

PK

jdracer
12-05-2010, 09:52 PM
I agree with Paul....... at Wade Raceway in Nampa, ID. we run LMP with falcons, and our GTP class we go with the USRA motor rules that allow s16d, s16d, contender, super wasp and a few others... by far the LMP with falcons is the biggest class we have.............

wjdougherty
12-06-2010, 07:12 AM
I am confused...

USRA Am LMP runs Falcon 7s; Pro LMP runs Contenders.

ISRA USA B Production allows either Super Wasps or Contenders.

I have them all depending on which sanctioning body and class I want to run.

Jeff714
12-06-2010, 07:12 AM
We find that GP-10 with 16D motors & GTP bodies on a turbo or C7 chassis draws two or three full mains just about every week. They are very easy to maintain and run for a good number of races before they need a rebuild. I think over the course of six months to a year it winds up being cheaper to ran a 16D over the Falcons that you replace every two or three races. We also run a Falcon B-production class that barely pulls in a full field.

Has anyone tried to put together a weekly race using the newer JK H-7 motor? I've played around with one a couple of times and it is a good bit faster then the Falcon. I think it would make a killer B-production class that just may run the same or better times as a contender motor.

fastg
12-06-2010, 08:21 AM
I have already decided NOT to race B Production is the Great Lakes ISRA Series. Open 12 is a ton of fun, but the BProd motors cost the same, to be competitive your need good Contender and SWasp motors, so the motor cost is double! You need a 1/24 class that is NOT a motor builders class.

We need an entry level low cost ISRA class, stamped chassis and a Falcon motor makes a lot of sense. We are trying to get a Tuesday night race program going using this exact spec, so far it's looking good, the racing is competitive and the number are growing.

Graham

Wallbasher
12-06-2010, 08:46 AM
I wish it wasn't such a long drive.......

"Dub" Wade
12-06-2010, 11:00 AM
We run a class called Falcon LMP on Saturdays. Its just USRA LMP rules, but both Amateur and Expert Run Falcon 7s. All body and Chassis rules are USRA.
Just started GP10 Nascar on Sundays. Looks like it will be good turn outs also.
Good luck

GearBear
12-06-2010, 12:39 PM
In the PNW, we run Falcons in our LMP class, and Contenders are our "Group 10" - similar to B Production class.

We've just changed from Falcon 7's to Hawk 7's OR Falcon 7's in our LMP program at PSCR. We are also using either motor in the 1/32 GTP cars on the hillclimb. Interestingly enough, Jay Mac's Falcon 7 is faster than all but 1 of the Hawk 7 cars. On the longer twister, the Hawk 7's seem to be about 1 or 2 tenths faster (in general), BUT the track record for the Falcon 7 hasn't been met by quite a margin yet. I think Lee had one of those 1 in a million motors when he set that.

We've been racing the Hawk 7's for a few weeks now on a weekly basis in 1/32. My first motor was toast after 1 race, the second one has 1 1/2 races on it and it seems fine. We'll see how it looks next weekend for the series race. For LMP, I think they will be off the pace after 1 or 2 races as well. I've had one that was no good right out of the package. Most of my Falcon's I would race 2-5 races before replacing them. And I can't think of the last time I got one so bad that I replaced it immediately after testing it for 5 or 6 laps.

All in all, I wish we had just stuck with the Falcon's and not allowed the Hawk 7's in. For a low end class, the Falcon 7's are a great motor to get people involved in racing. The cars handle better than the heavier motors, so the new racers have an easier time coming up to speed. Keep the contenders for GTP or "Expert" classes. Personally, I hate D can motors for almost everything except Drag cars.

Ken Swanson
12-11-2010, 09:34 AM
I have already decided NOT to race B Production is the Great Lakes ISRA Series. Open 12 is a ton of fun, but the BProd motors cost the same, You need a 1/24 class that is NOT a motor builders class.

We need an entry level low cost ISRA class, stamped chassis and a Falcon motor makes a lot of sense. We are trying to get a Tuesday night race program going using this exact spec, so far it's looking good, the racing is competitive and the number are growing.

Graham

Graham,

I certainly respect your decision not to race B-Production in our series. Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions. I personally think you are missing out on some of the best racing in the series by doing so. In your post you said "Open 12 is a ton of fun, but the B Prod motors cost the same, to be competitive your need good Contender and S Wasp motors, so the motor cost is double!" I do agree with you that Open 12 is a ton of fun, but both of your next two statements are absolutely not true.

An average Open 12 chassis costs in excess of $120 in kit form, $180.00 to $275.00 built. Some racers are running GT-12 chassis in the Open 12 class. They cost $55.00 in kit form, and $85.00 built. A stamped steel chassis can be purchased for $22.00. The open 12 cars can handle big amounts of horsepower so you do have to have a very good motor to be competitive. In B-Production you don't have to have an absolute bullit to be in contention. Additionally because of their higher speed the Open 12 cars are harder on tires, bodies, etc. With regard to your statement about the motor cost for B-Production being double that of Open 12, I don't even own a Super Wasp motor. I run nothing but Contenders, and I do quite well if I do say so myself. All of that being said, it is fairly obvious that racing Open 12 is substantially more costly that running B-production. Just simple dollars and cents right?

Proper setup and tuning is far more important than a lot of racers realize. At our last series race, I set up a B-Production car for my good friend Denny Moscatelli. On the Friday preceeding the race we were at Mid-America testing all day. In the end he preferred a completely different setup than I did. The motor he chose had more punch/brakes than my choice. He liked the feel of natural rubber tires. I chose Mid America Silvers. On Saturday we ran first and second in a very strong field of racers. Without that testing neither Denny or I would have done as well as we did. On that note I did absolutely no testing with my 1/32 car on Friday and it showed in the final results on Saturday.

In the second paragraph of your post you said "We need an entry level low cost ISRA class, stamped chassis and a Falcon motor makes a lot of sense." To me and many others that makes no sense at all. B-Production is now and has always been one of the most popular classes that we run. Additionally at the end of the ISRA USA Great Lakes Region Series 2009 /2010 season it was decided by a majority of the board members that there would be no changes to the five classes that we currently run for the next three full seasons. This was done to ensure the stability of the series, and re-assure the area racers that the series would have a consistant set of rules for the next few years.

ISRA, and ISRA USA are both orginizations that by design do not include "entry level low cost classes". They are aimed at the more experienced racers/ builders who chooses to race higher powered cars with more challenges regarding tuning and driving them. There is plenty of "low end" type of racing going on at the area tracks in their weekly programs. Chicagoland races them on Saturday nights. Mid-America has been running them on Saturdays, and now on Tuesdays with sucess.

For the several years that you were absent from racing, pretty much all of the racing in this area was limited to Falcon/16-D classes. To say the least it was extremely boring. There is most certainly a place for the low end classes in the hobby. They are absolutely necessary to get beginners involved and hold their intrest while they learn about the many aspects of the hobby. There are also some racres who are content to limit their efforts to lower powered cars on an ongoing basis. Then there are those who desire something more challenging. That is where the ISRA and ISRA USA classes come in. The four ISRA USA series that are currently running here in the US offer those racers an option to the less challenging "entry level" classes.

In our ISRA USA Great Lakes Region series we have a great mix of five classes ranging from 1/32 Sports which does use a Falcon motor, JRL (1/24 Open Wheel) using a C-can motor, B-Production with a stamped steel chassis and the same basic motor as JRL, Open-12 with more sofisticated chassis and a little hotter C-can motor, and finally 1/24 Eurosport. These classes fit very well together. The 1/32 cars do not require a great deal of maintainance. Nor do the JRL cars. You can use a little weaker motor in the JRL s because they really can't put down huge horsepower. The B-Production cars (my favorite class) present a bit more of a challenge because of the many chassis, motor, tuning combinations that are possible. Open-12 continues those challenges with many combinations of chassis, motor, tires, body tuning, etc. The 1/24 Eurosport cars are the pinacle of performance once again offering many chassis, motor, etc. combinations.

See you at the track

fastg
12-11-2010, 10:33 AM
Ken, Your own words sink your argument "I don't even own a Super Wasp motor", "In the end he preferred a completely different setup than I did". To find my perfect setup, I have to try all the options. How did you know you just like Contenders, was is just an out of the blue guess??????? No you probably went through all the options to decide the Super Wasp was not for you. And Ken your statement "I don't even own a Super Wasp motor" is highly misleading. About a month ago you SOLD ME TWO. So to say you don't own a Super Wasp might only just be true, but you probably put a lot of effort into developing them and decided you like the Contender. from an email you sent me in August "As an example, I run a Super wasp in B-Production at Mike's, and a Contender at Mid-America. "

So make your mind up.

Graham

Ken Swanson
12-11-2010, 11:07 AM
Ken, Your own words sink your argument "I don't even own a Super Wasp motor", "In the end he preferred a completely different setup than I did". To find my perfect setup, I have to try all the options. How did you know you just like Contenders, was is just an out of the blue guess??????? No you probably went through all the options to decide the Super Wasp was not for you. And Ken your statement "I don't even own a Super Wasp motor" is highly misleading. About a month ago you SOLD ME TWO. So to say you don't own a Super Wasp might only just be true, but you probably put a lot of effort into developing them and decided you like the Contender. from an email you sent me in August "As an example, I run a Super wasp in B-Production at Mike's, and a Contender at Mid-America. "

So make your mind up.

Graham

No mis-truths here Graham. I do not own any Super Wasp Motors because you bought the only two I have built in recent years, and Denny did prefer a different setup than I did. Different tires, gearing, and a "Contender" motor with less timimg than mine. So where are the words that "sink my argument"?

It's fairly obvious that I did "make my mind up" some time ago. That's why I finally sold off the two Super Wasp motors. When I first started racing the ISRA classes well over a year ago , I built a couple of Super Wasp motors on the advice of some of the faster racers who were running in the series at that time. I also built two Contenders at about the same time. I have run both types of motors in JRL and B-Production at several different series races. Yep, I did some experimentation, sorry. From that experimenting I decided that I prefered the way the Contenders felt.

Here's a link to my post in the OWH Classifieds. http://www.slotcartalk.com/slotcartalk/showthread.php?29058-Pro-Slot-Blueprinted-Motors

As you can see you bought the two motors on 08-29-10. Not a month ago, but well over three months ago. You also paid about half of what they cost me to build so your experimentation was considerably less costly than mine. You're welcome.

I never claimed that my choice of armatures was or is a "magic formula" for B-Production or any other class of racing. There are many racers who prefer a Super Wasp over a Contender for B-Production. I know of several racers in our area who use a Super Wasp in JRL and a Contender in B-Production. In every class no matter what motor is used experimentation and testing will give you better results. Chassis choice, gearing, tires, bodies, ride height, and yes the motor are all factors in how well a car performs. For me that is the best thing about the ISRA USA Rules. They allow more freedom to experiment and try different things than the much more restrictive USRA rules. I love building motors. It's one of the things that I enjoy most about slot racing. Just me.

I most certainly do not claim to be an expert on motors. I'm by no means a "professional motor builder", but through the years with the expert guidance of Monty Ohren of B.O.W. fame I've learned a thing or two about motors. If you or anyone would like to sit down and talk about chassis setup, or motors, or even try one of mine at the track by all means just ask. Anyone who knows me will attest that I'm always willing to help anyone who needs it, loan out anything in my box, and share what knowledge I have managed to aquire over the years.


Cheers

sirslotalot1
12-11-2010, 06:06 PM
There is benefit in the Falcon motor. For begginers, it is great. They do not need to worry about the logistics of the motor and can concentrate on driving and how pretty their car looks. And for some, it is low cost, although they were not for me some years ago. I had a motor budget. I could spend it on 2 c-can motors or 20 Falcons. I am sure the tracks and distrubutors liked that, but I saw a chance to get maybe a really good motor out of twenty. For that I got to put up with the inconsisstancy of the Falcons, although I am lead to believe that is not so much a problem now, but I am not willing to experiment again.

I love 1/32nd. On the average, I do better in the 1/32nd class then any other class. I guess there is something about the size that suits me. However, as I was beginning the discussion with Kenny as to running the 1/32nd in the Great Lakes ISRA series, when Kenny informed me that it was a Falcon motor class, I said: "thanks, but not thanks". That is the ONLY reason I did not run 1/32nd.

Again, they are great for some racers, but not enough zip (not pun intended Zip) for me.

For me, not being able to work on the motor removes half the fun and interest.

So, B-Production, Falcon: See ya later, I'm outa here. B-Production, C-can, you won't be able to get ride of me. It is truely my favorite class.

Mic Byrd
12-11-2010, 06:35 PM
garden state isra decided to run 1/32 production and group 10 with gtp body's as our 2 entry level classes . I personally hate falcon motor classes #1 reason you need to buy 3 to get 1 good motor that you hope last 3 races .
#2 they are in my opinion harder to control in a scale car because of the lack of brake . I personally don't like to run them and don't most races . Group 10 with 16d American arm and gtp body's is a very good entry level .same chassis as b pro and still at a good value dollars wise and if the entry level guys decide to go b pro they already have the chassis . 3rd class is b production and probably our biggest turn out . They are on the low end of higher speed classes and due to the different arms and dia. you can build a solid motor to your liking .4th class is open 12 a great class but not for everybody higher cost to run build and maintain 5th class is 1/24 euro.
Traveling series races to me are not for the guy who wants to run a cheap class week after week the raceways have those covered the series races are for the racers who want to 1 travel met new racers and be competitive in a serious race setting where driving ability and building skill all go into the mix to be a top racer.i don't want my series turned into a Thursday night crash fest . I believe you should leave the falcon classes to the weekly racers and keep the point series races and classes more for the serious racer and your series will grow just from the weekly racers wanting more of a challenge they will move up .anyone who wants to run the lower power cars can run retro I personnaly have a need for speed.

sirslotalot1
12-11-2010, 06:55 PM
Mic, well said. I agree with you 100%. Except I do not hate Falcons. But you are correct, they are great for the weekly races, but there is no room for them in the step up series races.