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Thread: How Much...

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Farmingville, New York
    Posts
    279

    Question The future is in our hands

    Charlie,

    It is unfortunate that you and others were not there this year. Gugu has no doubt created a tire that, for most, enabled just about everybody to go faster in both qualifying and for a short while during the race. And yes, rumor has it that the price will go down. However, in every race that I participated in and watched, this tire significantly deteriorated the track condition to a point that just about no tire was effective. The rubber build up was incredible. In addition, there was some track damage during the races which is what triggered the numerous tech checks during the race. I really believe that lap totals would have been significantly higher if these were not used. And hey, this is not Gugu's or anyone else's fault. He took the time and investment to design a tire which can knock a 1/10 or more off lap times. We all want to go faster and be competitive no matter what class we run. However, when it is at the expense of the overall quality of racing and potential damage to the tracks that we race on, I can't believe that this is what we want. There is always a compremise. Hopefully, we can come up with one before next years NATS. However, I will not allow the use of these tires in any of the NE USRA Series races. Those who are caught will be DQ'd, forfeit points accumulated and will not be eligible to earn any future points for the remainder of the season. Buena Park did a great job hosting this years NATS. My hat's off to Lenora, Chris and the entire crew for their great hospitality and a super facility. Hey Wendal, great BBQ.
    There will always be some controversy but this one can't be ignored. Remember, without a place to race, we have nothing. It takes racers to keep this hobby going. We need more racers, not less to spend more.

    Edsel

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Headed for the beach
    Posts
    643

    Very well said!

    Indeed Kudos to Chris & Lenore, the very best run any raceway has ever seen in my humble opinion
    Last edited by CruzinBob; 08-19-2005 at 07:37 PM.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Watkins Glen, New York
    Posts
    669

    Lightbulb

    Ed,

    I didn't realize that the track condition issues were as serious as you describe, and knowing you as well as I do and your level head, I guess I'll have to agree.

    You can see my points pertaining to financial advantages I'm sure though.

    Nice TQ by the way.
    "Bring your ballistic $hit and your asbestos shorts, nobody gets out alive." Paul Kovich

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Retired National USRA Director
    Posts
    1,985

    Cool

    Originally posted by weedracer
    Absolutely no way should the tires be banned .

    Has it been banned to have 40 GP12 motors while others can only afford 4?

    Has it been banned to be able to afford to have enough tires on race day to be able to dial in to whatever conditions exist?

    Here's the biggie:

    Have PK arms been banned even though they cost almost twice as much as other Open arms? The price on them is almost arbitrary according to who has 'em, who can't get 'em, how rare they are at a given moment, or whatever cosmic crappola surrounds them that day.

    It seems that the tires give you perfect traction, but at many expenses. Money, longevity, loss of gear ratio effectiveness, etc..

    I figure if you can afford to endure ( and risk) all of that, go for it. Someone else will be playing some advantage that the rest haven't thought of yet or can't afford.

    If the reason this was done is over cost, there are a million other things that most racers can't afford. That's why I thought there were different classes.

    Yes I have to agree that it is hard to "Ban" tires, but something has to be done about the escalating costs of racing.

    Sure, Motors, chassis, etc cost money as well, but with a motor you can get several races out of a motor, same for a chassis. When 3 to 4 pairs of tires cost the same as one motor ( box 12 ) that's pretty hard to swollow when you only get four maybe five heats out of the tires and you can't rebuild tires like you can a motor. I can sit down and build 40 motors and use them for many races over a two year period and maybe more. I can't do that with tires.

    I remember when SBR tires were only five $$ a pair and you might use five to ten sets at $ 50.00 a race. Then Wonder rubber came along and cost $ 14.00 a pair and everyone freaked out about the price increase, then they figured out they only needed one or two sets costing $ 28.00 versus the $ 50.00 or more they were spending. They were happy, because it was costing them less.

    Now if it takes 6 to 8 pairs of these to run one class a regional event at a cost of $ 165.00 and up, you will start to see a decrease in entries pretty soon. Look at some of the Nats numbers and maybe it's already happening. I already have heard from several Tri-State racers freaking out before the first race next month and wanting to know if these tires are neccessary. They all say if it costs 100.00 plus a class for tires alone, they are done racing. Sure I can change motors every heat, but I can rebuild those motors for 12.00 or so and use them again. With these tires it's 27.50 per heat and no rebuilding....take em off and throw them right in the trash can. Even tires at 14.00 a heat, it makes one start to wonder.

    Spec tire racing in the norm in full size 1 to 1 racing. Look at Nascar, F-1, Indy Car, IRL, your local raceway. They all have tire rules to make it economical for all participants. Spec tires are very popular in RC racing in several lower classes at many raceways.

    I am not saying there should be spec tires in all slot car classes, but we have to do something to protect the racers ( not the Nats type racer ) in the lower classes such as Spec 15, Group 12 and the AM classes. Let the Pro classes continue to run whatever. If the costs keep going up, the entries keep going down. In these classes we already control motors and chassis by price restrictions and availability. The same can be done with tires by availability of being sold over the counter.

    I know that if I were racing Box 12 in the Tri-State series and I had to buy my tires over the counter and everybody else had to do the same, it would make things simpler and cheaper for all involved and all would be pretty equal when it came to tires. Raceways would be making money, as they should, with this concept. Racers could still buy as many as they wanted to, but all would be buying from the same batch at the track. This will also lead to more teching to make sure the racers are not trying to run other tires. More restrictions, more time to run the program.

    Those that want the advantage of high cost, fast wearing tires can use them in the upper expert classes and that will still have an effect in time as well. I am sure when everybody gets home from the Nats will think things over ( such as Bent Rim ) and wonder if the high cost of tires was worth it. A lot of people have already been thinking it over and are talking about not even racing if it continues.

    If guys quit racing over cost of tires, there goes motor, chassis, body, parts, etc sales. Something needs to be done before all of this happens. Alot are already sitting back, laughing hoping this kills off wing racing...do we want to see this????

    That's what we have to worry about.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Iowa City, Iowa
    Posts
    319
    Well said Ron!
    Dub-U Motorsports 6

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Pine, AZ
    Posts
    651

    Tires and Cost to Race

    I agree with Ron H. he is correct this will kill the wing racing all across the country. My son and I support the SoCal USRA every month plus we travel to the Scale Nat's every year, it is very costly every year, for me. We went to the Scale Nat's this year at Keystone Raceway, with over a 100 Motors, thank god we had help with the parts for the motors, bodies, and tires. If we didn't have that help the both of us would not even be racing every month nor would we attend the Nat's every year. The amatuers at the scale Nat's this year experienced the same cost to race. Is it worth it? I beleive in supporting our local raceways when it comes to buying parts or even racing at their facilities. The problem I see with the new racers is when they start winning in the lower divisions at the local raceway. The raceways start moving them up and then they find out that they can't be competitive any more, they can't afford to purchase more motors, so they quit. How do you resolve this problem to keep are local raceways open?

    My son and I both raced this year at the Div-1 Nat's in spec-15 and my son raced amatuer Box Stock. The sad thing was I went to the expence for us to race spec-15, 2- chassis, four motors, and all new GT-1 72p gears, we both made the main and there was no pay-out for second though eight position. It cost me well over two hundred dollars for us to race. We won't race this class any more.

    Steve

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    NYC/Long Island
    Posts
    176

    Lightbulb Cost Containment

    Ed, Ron nicely said.

    Charlie- cost containmant, through technology limitation, is a fact of life for every form of racing up to and including Formula 1! Why should it be diffrent for already expensive toycars funded by individuals. Your concept is nice in theory, but would be suicidal for the sport/hobby.

    This Nats doesn't sound like it was much fun.

    My 2750 cents

    BillB

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    NYC/Long Island
    Posts
    176

    Thumbs down Pay Outs

    No pay outs for 2nd-8th place, that frankly sucks, and does not say much for the race track.

    Way back when (1992) all Nats finalists were paid and thats as it should be as making a Nats main is a victory.

    This again does not sound like a fun Nats.


    Bill B

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Springfield, Il.
    Posts
    535

    What no money?

    This is a problem, that if I were you, I would question not only the track owner but the USRA. There is no excuse NOT to pay the eight in the main. Especially if you have 20 entries! Unfortunately if you make the main in Spec-15 you can no longer race that class at the Nats. You only get one shot. and then you are moved up. If you had made the main in Am-Gp-12 you would not have been able to race the Spec-15 class next year either. Ron I only disagree with you on one point. That is where you said the Expert racers could run whatever tire they want. I believe that you will have fallout on this side of the entries as well. I know I would not compete if I had to race these ridicuously expensive tires. I think they are for qualifying ONLY! Let's go SPEC tires! That way we all have to run the same tire and NO ONE has an advantage. There have been several years here lately where some racers have had an advantage with a tire that was ONLY available to them. Enough is enough!
    Jeff Bechtel/Former Int-15 World & National Champion

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Retired National USRA Director
    Posts
    1,985

    Re: What no money?

    Originally posted by Jeff Bechtel
    This is a problem, that if I were you, I would question not only the track owner but the USRA. There is no excuse NOT to pay the eight in the main. Especially if you have 20 entries! Unfortunately if you make the main in Spec-15 you can no longer race that class at the Nats. You only get one shot. and then you are moved up. If you had made the main in Am-Gp-12 you would not have been able to race the Spec-15 class next year either. Ron I only disagree with you on one point. That is where you said the Expert racers could run whatever tire they want. I believe that you will have fallout on this side of the entries as well. I know I would not compete if I had to race these ridicuously expensive tires. I think they are for qualifying ONLY! Let's go SPEC tires! That way we all have to run the same tire and NO ONE has an advantage. There have been several years here lately where some racers have had an advantage with a tire that was ONLY available to them. Enough is enough!
    Jeff,
    You may have missed my point in my post. I said let the experts use them and in time that will have an effect on their entries in the future. You are one who has to race expert and state you will not race if it comes to this expense. I say your statement makes my point.
    But they will call us sissies or maybe even worse anyway...lol

    I really don't know why anyone wouldn't want to race spec tires, unless they were going to lose their advantage. It would cost everyone less in the long run and make it easier to race.

    The best question is....... why do we even qualify if there is not enough entries to dictate consis' being run. Look at the classes raced so far...how many proved that qualifying is a waste of time and $$$$$. If you want to go for track records or TQ, then everyone that wants to at the end of the normal racing program, throw 10 or 20 bucks in the pot and the TQ gets the dough.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Lawn guyland NY
    Posts
    2,312

    Unhappy It wasn't fun

    And we won the classes we raced!!!!!!

    This was not the fault of the raceway!

    This was not the fault of the USRA!

    This was not Gugu's or Kofords fault!

    I blame ourselves! Nobody put a gun to our heads and made us run these tires. We did the math and still choose to run them. However, we got on a plane, rented a car, paid for a hotel, spent endless hours working on our stuff, we did not go there to lose.

    Would we be willing to do this again next year, if these tires are legal for racing? Probably Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    World Famous Port Jefferson Raceway
    631-696-7721
    bentrim@optonline.net
    www.portjeffraceway.com
    Former USRA Grand Puba

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Miami
    Posts
    91

    Re: What no money?

    Originally posted by Jeff Bechtel
    This is a problem, that if I were you, I would question not only the track owner but the USRA. There is no excuse NOT to pay the eight in the main. Especially if you have 20 entries! Unfortunately if you make the main in Spec-15 you can no longer race that class at the Nats. You only get one shot. and then you are moved up. If you had made the main in Am-Gp-12 you would not have been able to race the Spec-15 class next year either. Ron I only disagree with you on one point. That is where you said the Expert racers could run whatever tire they want. I believe that you will have fallout on this side of the entries as well. I know I would not compete if I had to race these ridicuously expensive tires. I think they are for qualifying ONLY! Let's go SPEC tires! That way we all have to run the same tire and NO ONE has an advantage. There have been several years here lately where some racers have had an advantage with a tire that was ONLY available to them. Enough is enough!
    Jeff,
    I agree with you and something needs to be done. USRA needs to step up and leave democracy a side on some issues and dictate rules for the future of this hobby. Some things can be controlled and enforced other never. Like special picked arms only available to "them" and special center cuts of cobalt magnets only available to "them".
    You see a lot of very talented people that have mastered the motor building art, car set up and driving getting frustrated at the point of dropping the hobby. They show up at a National event after two months of hard work and investment to realize that he is competing for a 4th place. Because 1st, 2nd and 3rd are reserved for those with the "special" equipment parts.
    Of course you can't do spec arms and magnets for every class, but tires is doable and fair for racers and racetracks.
    After all, if you are good you will win anyway right?

    My 2 cents.

    Ricardo.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Springfield, Il.
    Posts
    535

    OOOOOOPS!

    Ron,

    Sorry, I did miss that line. Well, everyone here it is. Ron and I agree on something! Thought you would NEVER hear that didn't you? Bent. Congrats to the RGT's. You guys dominated once again. You are right, it is nobody's fault but the racers. We are our own worst enemy! We all want to go faster. But we need to ask ourselves at what cost? Let us ALL ban together to make this tire deal go away for next years Nats. I really do believe we will have a better and more competitive race.
    Last edited by Jeff Bechtel; 08-20-2005 at 01:36 PM.
    Jeff Bechtel/Former Int-15 World & National Champion

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Lawn guyland NY
    Posts
    2,312

    Spec Tires are fine with me

    Have the host raceway mark them right before the nats. Everybody including other Store owners, Manufact's, Blue printers and Team racers must buy the tires at the race. God forbid the host raceway should make some money!
    Ricardo is right, the cream always rises to the top. Regardless of tires, the ones who can trim out a car and get it to work in track conditions, will most likely win. Erkle did not run the car he planned on running, he made a last minute call based on track conditions.
    World Famous Port Jefferson Raceway
    631-696-7721
    bentrim@optonline.net
    www.portjeffraceway.com
    Former USRA Grand Puba

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Buena Park, California
    Posts
    30

    Spec-15 Payout

    This is Chris from Buena Park Raceway. Jeff Bechtel, you of all people SHOULD know that the host raceway ONLY hosts the Nats event. We have nothing to do with the rules, etc.

    To Jeff and Half Fast, take out your USRA rule book (page 28) and it clearly states for the Spec-15 Class:

    Awards will be donated merchandise and trophies ONLY!

    As raceway owners, we did not make this rule! We were paid a percentage for each entry and the rest went to USRA for the cost of the handout motors.

    (By the way, I donít know where someone got that first place got paid, cause they didnít)

    We are doing our best to host a successful 2005 Nats and your accusations and negativity towards us, is totally uncalled for.

    Please contact me direct at the raceway. (714) 827-9979 I would be happy to discuss any further problems you have with our hosting this event.

    Chris Gallegos
    <p align="center"><a href="http://www.bparkraceway.com" target="_top">
    <img border="0" src="http://www.bparkraceway.com/BPRLogo1.gif" alt="Buena
    Park Raceway" align="absmiddle" width="249" height="46"></a></p>

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