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Thread: BarnBurner 2003

  1. #16
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    Actually Doug I think they were DQ'd at the 2002 Nats, but had been legal at the 2001 Nats and even at the 2002 Barnburner. The question is what is a static brace, nowhere does it say that the brace can only be parallel to the solder joint and braces frequently are perpendicular to the joint they are intended to strenghten. I know that there was some suggestion that it stiffened the rear but considering how short it was and that it occurred outside the "W" it is doubtful that it caused any stiffining at all. The reason it was bounced at the 2002 Nats was because it was decided at the tech table that it was not allowed this time.
    The rules weren't changed only the interpretation. I don't for a moment think that the results were rigged at the NENATS and we know that Chris can get a little emotional at times. But I do believe that G12 rules as written are a big mess and are in need of a complete editing and rewrite. Of course you should run the races by the USRA rules but the rules should be clear and enforcable so you or any race director can run a race without controversy.That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    Paul

  2. #17
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    Farmingdale, N.Y.
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    I actually agree with Paul. The rule has no proper interpretaion. It sould be re-written for proper idea on the rule. I have been reading the rules and I now understand all of them. When I see Bracing, I see Jeremy's car from the Barnburner and also see a piece of wire going across the chassis.

    Thank you Doug for the Kind words. You must have been thinking that after the bikini contest . My focus now is on the Barnburner as I really enjoyed how my program was working the whole day. Props will still go to Johnny as he had one hell of a run. Like I started saying at Port Jeff and I will say now. I will be back and what doesnt kill me will just make me stronger. I have 2 spots saved @ Slots-A-Lot with my 3 other Barnburner plaques (2k1 4th place am box., 2k2 TQ & 1st am. grp 12).
    DDDDDDerek
    USRA Div. 1 Assistant Tech Director
    You know that fat kid who lost weight

    The World Famous Port Jefferson Raceway

    Honey Badger Does'nt Give A Sh*t, It Does What It Wants!!!!!!!!!!!!

  3. #18
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    Jun 2002
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    Watkins Glen, New York
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    PK

    In your post above you said: "nowhere does it say that the brace can only be parallel to the solder joint".

    Nowhere does it say that it can meander all over the car either, which is what could happen with the sometimes creative rule interpretations we see.

    You and I had this talk outside the raceway...remember my mentioning how far rearward I've been seeing front wheels due to the lengthening of front wheel mounts?

    The various rules related to bracing say: Page 30, part F) Modifications

    1) "Static bracing consisting of PIANO WIRE may be added to solder joints only."

    Not only were the braces in question made of brass, but they "strayed" from the solder joint when the rounded the bend onto the side rails. If they were two inches long and half way to the front of the car, you would certainly say they were illegal, right? Well, they weren't, they were about 5/8 of an inch long, but still too long since they shouldn't have been going forward at all.

    1a) "Brass weights must be solidly, rigidly attached,and not used as a brace."

    Now I see the vagueries there too, but when working with the rules we had, you can see how the conclusion was arrived at.

    For what it's worth, it was the hardest thing I've ever had to help decide, and I was somewhat inclined to let it slide based on the fact that it wasn't the Nats, and it wasn't a blatant performance enhancer. It was mentioned however that that very car...not one like it, but that very chassis was rejected at tech in the past at the Nats(at PJ I think).

    Derek is a nice kid and good racer....that day he became a renowned good sport too....not a bad afternoon's work.

    Last edited by weedracer; 11-10-2002 at 01:04 PM.

  4. #19
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    Charlie, the only thing that is at fault here is the rules and the ambiguity that surrounds them. I am not questioning what the tech inspector concluded but the state of the rules he had to work with. I would have had the same conclusion if I were teching especially after having had to change the braces myself at the NATs. Your comment about the front wheel mounts is a good case in point and there are many other gray areas in the rules just like that one. All I am saying is that the G12 rules are written poorly and in need of a comprehensive edit and rewrite. All the other classes have the benefit of simple easy to enforce rules and never have any controversy as a result. Now that SPEC 15 exists we don't need the continuing charade of G12 ruleswhich are supposed to be some "boxstock" derivative. If you honestly sit down and read the G12 rules they are ridiculus when compared to all the other classes' rules. I must admit that after all these years I am losing my taste for G12, after running the higher end classes the last year the simplicity is refreshing as is the ease with which a competitive program can be put together. The indiviual components of a G12 program may be relatively inexpensive but the quantity of the items needed and the time needed to find the perfect combination is daunting, thats why no one wants to move up in G12 but in the other classes its heads up racing until you get to the NATS or a limited number of big races. We have probably beat this dead horse into equine paillard ( just to keep you gourmands on your toes,LOL) but as I said in a previous post NO ONE is to blame for this just a crappy set of ruleswhich werelayered in over many years.
    Paul

  5. #20
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    Talking PK

    "I must admit that after all these years I am losing my taste for G12 "

    I knew it would get to you sooner or later....lol



    P.S. I agree about the way the rules are written, I think you can expect some revisions in the new book.

  6. #21
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    Jun 2002
    Location
    Farmingdale, N.Y.
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    I HOPE

    I want to understand the rules better but without a better wording then how the hell can I.
    DDDDDDerek
    USRA Div. 1 Assistant Tech Director
    You know that fat kid who lost weight

    The World Famous Port Jefferson Raceway

    Honey Badger Does'nt Give A Sh*t, It Does What It Wants!!!!!!!!!!!!

  7. #22
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    Jun 2002
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    114
    Doug,
    have you set the dates for the barnburner yet?

  8. #23
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    Lawn guyland NY
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    Thumbs up Yes

    The Barn Burner is the last weekend in Feb. Feb 19th to the 23rd. As always the AM GP 12 race will be that sat morning.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
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    138
    is pro following amatuer or friday night? im going to check my class schedule and do my damndest to get to this race. I think there is much in the way of motor developing to be done with this stuff, but im gonna try and do it. ill see you port jeff guys probably in the next two weeks. finals suck. lol.

    -Brian

  10. #25
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    Jun 2002
    Location
    Springfield, Il.
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    Nats enforcement of the rules

    Charlie,
    I have to differ with your statement that this was not enforced at the Nats. I know for a fact of at least two or three cars that were bounced in pre-race tech for this very infraction. This was enforced at the 2000, 2001, and the 2002 Nats. I teched the cars at the 2000 and 2001 Nats and I made the racers take them off. I know Dave who helped you in the tech line this year caught a couple of them this year as well. As you quoted the rule. Piano wire only and may strengthen the solder joint only. By going down the rail, it no longer strengthens the solder joint only. Remember, the one rule that should clarify everything is the one about, "if it's not mentioned, it's not legal". Does it say that you can go down the rail, NO! It is not that the rules are that vague, it's that everyone is trying to make more out of them. The main rule that should be followed when building anything in GP-12 class is... if it did not come on the chassis, motor, etc, then don't do it! The chassis rules clearly says that it must be built exactly as the manufacturer builds it. If you are in doubt go to your local raceway and look at an assembled chassis. Why are you guys trying to make this harder than it is?
    Jeff Bechtel/Former Int-15 World & National Champion

  11. #26
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    Just as an example,

    "H) Lightweight Components
    Since the GP-12 class is intended to be an entry level class, many of the rules are designed to discourage the use of complicated, state of the art , or expensive components. Therefore, special lightweight components are specifically prohibited , including:
    1. Magnet wire or magnet type wireas a substitute lead wire
    2. Hollow or special lightweight axles."

    Now based on the above, a component modified to be special lightweight is illegal and based on the " if its not mentioned its illegal" concept it needs to be specifically allowed such as the specific allowance for drilled gears and drilled wheels. Therfore, if a component other then those two components are drilled it would be illegal. Erkles Pro G12 car was illegal because it had a drilled guide nut. In reality who cares whether he had a drilled guide nut but according to the rules it was illegal. There is no "lack of competitive advantage" exclusion in the rules.

    Before, Doug and the boys come after me loaded for bear I would point out that Erkle deserves the win and I am only using this as an example of the nonsencical results a direct reading of the rules can create. I still think they are a mess and create numerous situations for rule creation at the tech table because of the poor drafting they represent.
    Paul

    ps Jeff I still dont understand how running in a Pro class, when you dont meet the criteria for being a Pro, causes you to be henceforth designated a Pro but I guess that is just another of the mysteries of USRA rules interpretation. Maybe someday yoiu can explain that one to me.
    Paul

  12. #27
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    Jun 2002
    Location
    Watkins Glen, New York
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    Lightbulb Jeff

    You may have misunderstood me up there......I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't enforced , I pointed out that it came to my attention that the very car that got DQ'd at the Northeast Nats was entered by someone else at the Nats at Port Jeff, and it was deemed illegal because of the braces.....by you I now know.

    I really don't know the circumstances that brought the same car back with the erroneous parts re-attached and it doesn't matter anymore.

    It must have been what Gary NJ would refer to as a "Gomesian slip".


  13. #28
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    Springfield, Il.
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    Got caught again!

    Yep, that's who it was.
    Jeff Bechtel/Former Int-15 World & National Champion

  14. #29
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    Jun 2002
    Location
    Farmingdale, N.Y.
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    Out of curiosity

    After the race my car was checked, as well as chefs and zachs. Was Johnnys car ever torn down after the race as I believe i never saw that after my DQ.
    DDDDDDerek
    USRA Div. 1 Assistant Tech Director
    You know that fat kid who lost weight

    The World Famous Port Jefferson Raceway

    Honey Badger Does'nt Give A Sh*t, It Does What It Wants!!!!!!!!!!!!

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Watkins Glen, New York
    Posts
    662

    Derek

    Yes it was.


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