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Thread: Is there a chart or guideline to rewinding 1/24 scale slot car motors?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
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    St Charles, Illinois, USA
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    2,319
    The prime technique is to bond the new wire to the commutator posts. In the old days with wimpy track power, you COULD solder or silver solder the wire after you carefully cleaned the insulation off of the magnet wire. Most custom wound tagged arms today are spot welded like the RAM armatures of the 1960s. Track power on modern tracks can make silver solder melt with ease.
    l.d. kelley, M.A. Ramcatlarry@aol.com

    60 year pin 1959-2019
    Racing slot cars in America
    USRA 2019 member
    IRRA, ISRA/USA, Hardbodies 1/24 &
    1/32 - Great Lakes Slot Car Club
    retired raceway owner 1992-2007
    Omni/Cidex service center

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    32
    bonding magnet wire is polymide enamel coated but also coated with a heat activated epoxy that bonds the wires together when heated to a specific temp to activate the epoxy coat bonding the winds together and to the stacks on the arm. a group 7 can turn up to 200,000 rpm so without bonding magnet wire. IT"S PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO FOR AN ARM TO SPIN UP THAT FAST WITHOUT A BONDING AGENT HOLDING IT FROM EXPANDING . thats why when you heat one up past it's activation temp the winds expand and it gets thrown out of balance.. too much voltage into a motor will cause over spinning and your commutator will flower like a rose. CHEEP CHINESE ARMS ARE HEATED AFTER BEING WOUND TO BOND THE WIRE OR THEY WOULD NEVER WORK.as for planet engineers and crap like that ?????. i do know that what i have noted above is COLD HARD FACT.A TRUE WORKING COMBINATION FOR A LOOKALIKE SUPER 16 THAT WORKS. but if you use this to cheat YOUR JUST A LOOSER. i made my first rewind back in 1979. it was a TWINN K arm that was the replacement for the stock arm that came in the johnson 16 d motor used in womps and such. this was before i knew about finish work or even the correct direction to wind the stacks. it lasted about 35 seconds on the track before throwing a wind. after that it was reverse engineering and trial and error before i eventually found working combinations for different blanks. BUT ALL JUST FOR KICKS

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramcatlarry View Post
    The prime technique is to bond the new wire to the commutator posts. In the old days with wimpy track power, you COULD solder or silver solder the wire after you carefully cleaned the insulation off of the magnet wire. Most custom wound tagged arms today are spot welded like the RAM armatures of the 1960s. Track power on modern tracks can make silver solder melt with ease.
    on the super 16 chinese arm the wire loops around clips on the comm. these are pressed closed not soldered.(i have put a small dab of solder on the clips to hold them shut when using larger guages of wire because i have had the clips flower open from g force but from experience,trial and error most of the big wire combos i tried dident work. be sure to remove the insulation off the wire where it loops through the clips on the comm or there will be no electrical contact. you can use a sharp hobby knife to remove the insulation and to open the clips on the comm when unwinding a new projec

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill from NH View Post
    I haven't heard of bonding magnet wire you mentioned. Most rewinders I know use heavy polymide enamel coated magnet wire rated at 220 C to wind the arm. Planet Engineers carry it in many gauges, including the finer gauges. After winding an arm, it is coated with a high temperature epoxy.
    bonding magnet wire is polymide enamel coated but also coated with a heat activated epoxy that bonds the wires together when heated to a specific temp to activate the epoxy coat bonding the winds together and to the stacks on the arm. a group 7 can turn up to 200,000 rpm so without bonding magnet wire. IT"S PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO FOR AN ARM TO SPIN UP THAT FAST WITHOUT A BONDING AGENT HOLDING IT FROM EXPANDING . thats why when you heat one up past it's activation temp the winds expand and it gets thrown out of balance.. too much voltage into a motor will cause over spinning and your commutator will flower like a rose. CHEEP CHINESE ARMS ARE HEATED AFTER BEING WOUND TO BOND THE WIRE OR THEY WOULD NEVER WORK.as for planet engineers and crap like that ?????. i do know that what i have noted above is COLD HARD FACT.A TRUE WORKING COMBINATION FOR A LOOKALIKE SUPER 16 THAT WORKS. but if you use this to cheat YOUR JUST A LOOSER. i made my first rewind back in 1979. it was a TWINN K arm that was the replacement for the stock arm that came in the johnson 16 d motor used in womps and such. this was before i knew about finish work or even the correct direction to wind the stacks. it lasted about 35 seconds on the track before throwing a wind. after that it was reverse engineering and trial and error before i eventually found working combinations for different blanks. BUT ALL JUST FOR KICKS

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    32
    if an body wants specs on tag'd arms i have a chart i can e mail you and for untaged chinese arms just ask and i most likely will know i have unwound my share of different motors over the years. bernie_stien_1@msn.com

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    32
    i have a chart i can e mail you

  7. #22
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    Sep 2016
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    32
    Quote Originally Posted by GearBear View Post
    Paul,

    I disagree. The tools and blanks are readily available. Granted many rules basically don't allow home wound armatures for all but Drag motors, G7 and Eurosport. But winding arms is still done by many people and you can actually buy the commutators and blanks very easily. In fact, I will be one of the ones trying to wind my own Euro arms in the future. I just need to pick up some high temp silver brazing solder and I'll be set. I have everything else I need. I won't be doing Grp 10 or 12 arms, but Euro arms are another story. Besides, all those old Falcon 7 arms make perfect project arms for winding your own motors. Just put on a good comm and you are ready to wind.

    For some nice arm blanks and commutators send a PM to wbugenis.
    with enough practice anyone with two hands can wind an arm.without the finish work it wont go 3 laps without throwing a wind or overheating. it must be bonded balanced and trued. bonding can be done in your own toaster oven and you can use your comm lathe for the true but balancing must be done on a balancing machine

  8. #23
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    Sep 2016
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    32
    Quote Originally Posted by oldweirdherald View Post
    Hi Gary,

    We don't necessarily disagree... but you somewhat clarify my point.

    I mainly wanted to point out that for the Group or "spec" arms - hand winding is not legal for "spec" racing classes.

    For the AVERAGE or newbee hobbyist - hand winding may be impractical, as the components are not READILY available... however, for a more advanced or adventurist do-it-yourself-er like yourself... then I would have to stand corrected - anything is possible!

    For somebody experimenting with winding their own armatures - then expired Falcon motors would be an excellent idea! Every track that uses them should have plenty of used Falcons, ready to be rescued from the dumpster. The main component that wears out is the leaf spring brushes, then would be the commutator.

    Here's a direct link to an old article on OWH by Larry Shephard - "Cheetah on Steroids" - which explains how to put a rebuildable "C" can endbell and brushes on a Cheetah, Fox, or Falcon type motor.

    http://www.oldweirdherald.com/techtips/cheetah/

    Combine this endbell with a hand wound armature, and someone could indeed have some fun making some fast little project motors.

    I do hope that nobody is toying with the idea of trying to sneak rewound motors into Falcon or Group "spec" motor classes... however.

    (I often tend to forget that there are MANY tinkerers out there who really don't care about rules or classes or organized racing - they just love to BUILD!)
    all that work to put a nice enbell and arm in a piece "o" crap falcon can and magnets is completely senseless.

  9. #24
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    Sep 2016
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    32
    opps i mean cheetah piece"o" crap

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    NorthWesterner now in Philippines
    Posts
    9,521
    Zippity's link in post #3 wasn't working for me...
    but this link works:

    Armature Wind Specifications

    http://zippitynz.com/Archive/ArmatureSpecs.htm

    PK


    motormaster:

    Larry Shephard's Cheetah on Steroids article was intended for people like Larry (RIP)
    who love the simple fun of tinkering.

    Many of us enjoy taking something that might otherwise become dumpster fill,
    and by using creativity, craftsmanship, and imagination...
    give it another life, simply for the pure challenge, pleasure, & satisfaction of doing it!

    I have one of Larry's setups he sent me.I slapped some obsolete arm in it,
    and stuck it a fun car and that thing was FAST!
    I used it for breaking in tires or the lane, practice, a loaner car for potential new racers,
    or just for fun.

    Not everything to do with slot cars (let alone in life...) needs to be USRA, ISRA, ESROC, IRRA, RETRO, or even AMSCRAY approved,
    or competative enough to race in the next
    Inter-Galactic, International, World, National, Regional, or Neighborhood Championship of the Universe!

    "If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good." - Dr. Seuss

    And remember:
    Slot car racing... it's not just a SPORT... it's also a HOBBY!!!


    (intergalactic copyright 2016 the OWH online publishing empire...
    but somewhat inspired by Clayton "It's JUST a HOBBY!" Parker)



    PK @ OWH

    Last edited by oldweirdherald; 10-01-2016 at 07:34 AM.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Paul Kassens
    OWH Slot Car Talk "Mom"
    The Old Weird Herald
    email: paulk@oldweirdherald.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    32
    P K....
    im a tinkerer my self so i guess i could understand the highly modified cheetah motor. winding an arm and watching it work properly gives some sort of personal satisfaction. especially after lots of trial and error. my next rewind project is going to be the proslot neo drag motor. these things have chinese arms in them with very strong magnets. i will heat it up in my oven for about 10 minutes to remove the old wind counting each turn and after that i will use a micrometer to find out the guage .this way i will know the stock specs and that kinda gives me a starting point. because of the magnet strength i will probably start with 27 or 26 gauge wire also depending on what it came stock with. as for the amount of turns thats anybodies guess. its all TRIAL AND ERROR or perhaps find a working combination on the first try BUT ALL JUST FOR KICKS like you said its a hobby and suppose to be fun and fun is good.

    motormaster
    Last edited by motormaster01; 10-01-2016 at 09:13 PM.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by motormaster01 View Post
    P K....
    im a tinkerer my self so i guess i could understand the highly modified cheetah motor. winding an arm and watching it work properly gives some sort of personal satisfaction. especially after lots of trial and error. my next rewind project is going to be the proslot neo drag motor. these things have chinese arms in them with very strong magnets. i will heat it up in my oven for about 10 minutes to remove the old wind counting each turn and after that i will use a micrometer to find out the guage .this way i will know the stock specs and that kinda gives me a starting point. because of the magnet strength i will probably start with 27 or 26 gauge wire also depending on what it came stock with. as for the amount of turns thats anybodies guess. its all TRIAL AND ERROR or perhaps find a working combination on the first try BUT ALL JUST FOR KICKS like you said its a hobby and suppose to be fun and fun is good.

    motormaster
    have you had fun today?

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Posts
    4,486
    You were correct, Paul.

    I had "archived" that link on my website but had not updated the link in Post #3

    All updated now
    Zippity

    "Rules are written by FEAR; and that Racers are motivated by the Fear that somebody may have something that gives others an Edge." - Rocky Russo



  14. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    126
    The epoxy Monty Ohren (and other current small scale armature builders) used is from here:

    http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/4460.pdf

    Not cheap but not horribly expensive and available in small quantities (pints).

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by wbugenis View Post
    The epoxy Monty Ohren (and other current small scale armature builders) used is from here:

    http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/pdf/4460.pdf

    Not cheap but not horribly expensive and available in small quantities (pints).
    you cant just buy this epoxy and paint it on an arm. it needs to be sucked into the winds with a special vacuum chamber device. painting it on just is not enough. it will only bond the top winds to the row below it regardless of viscosity . once it spins up its gonna throw a wind faster than you can say commutator. commercial arm manufactures
    have everything to complete an arm after its wound. this is why i suggest using epoxy coated enamel wire. it bonds the wire with heat all the way through. and as i said before its expensive and hard to find in small spools but works great. the chinese arms you get in parma 502s and proslot 2101 sealed motors are epoxy coated enamel wire. after coming off the hand turned winding machine these arms are baked at a low temp to bond the wire to the stacks. these frickin things are wound very poorly and just about every one i have unwound has a different amount of winds on each stack. the correct amount is 60 turns of 28 guage wire. some stacks were short a wind or two and some were over a wind or two but usually never 60 on each. if you don't use epoxy coated and only enamel i'm sure some place like proslot would probably do the finish work for a small charge

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