My take on the Amateur situation at the Nat's.

**swiss** · 04-14-2011, 05:40 AM

Part 1

I think I've done a pretty good job staying out of USRA business.
I've had fairly strong opinions of recent USRA affairs such as the BOW story, but as an IRRA board member,
and not being super-passionate about said BOW situation, I've refrained from posting.

Despite my focus on Retro racing the past 4 years, I am concerned about the USRA and rejoined the
organization last year as to be able to vote for Milton Gamble.
I've always enjoyed and respected his restrained manner and quiet wisdom.

I am passionate enough about the goings on this past weekend at the Div. II USRA Nat's,
I feel I have to break my aforementioned silence and post something.

On Thursday night, when I saw the podium pic of the Am. LMP race, with a 19(?) year old kid standing next to
2 extremely accomplished builders and racers, I wanted to cry.

I scratched my head and wondered how this could happen.
I accessed the USRA website to find the rule.
In the 2011/cuurent rulebook, on page 49, I saw:

GENERAL SCALE
COMPETITION REGULATIONS
I. Driver Classification Scale Division
A. Eurosport and GT-12
All drivers are encouraged to enter these classes regardless of ranking.
B. Driver Divisions
All classes except Eurosport and Junior will be divided into Amateur and Expert divisions.
1. Amateur Division
a) Racers with average driving or technical ability and newer racers.
b) At the National Championships, Amateur Division racers will use handout motors for all classes.
c) Junior class is for those 14 years of age and younger.
2. Expert Division
a) All drivers with exceptional driving or technical ability.
b) Any driver sponsored by a major manufacturer must race in this Division.
c) Any racer who has won in any Amateur class at the Scale Nationals

Wanting to give the 2 extremely accomplished builders and racers the benefit of the doubt, I went to my 2006
physical copy of the rulebook in case this was a new set of criteria.
The rule was was exactly the same in 2006 as in 2011.
My first Nat's attendee that walked into the raceway, minutes after the race had concluded, expressed his dismay about what had occurred.
and I of course, agreed.

On Friday once it was apparent Ron Hershman was entered in AM. 4.5" Nascar, I started fielding phone calls and PM's, wondering
"What the heck is going on?".
I reread the rules for the 3rd or 4th time and then started checking the USRA General Competition Regulations to try to find
something in that section that contradicted the General Scale Competition Regulations.
I didn't find anything.

**swiss** · 04-14-2011, 05:41 AM

As an IRRA official, we regularly have rules discussions drafting new rules and tightening
up the wording on existing ones.
When the wording start's getting too redundant, one of the 5 board members will
pipe up and say let's make is simpler. If the intent is obvious, we shy away from
wording that will have the readers saying "Duh, no kidding".
We're confident Noose will enforce the rules as the obvious intent is.

Regardless, this post isn't an IRRA plug.

With the split AM/EXP classifications in the USRA, there will always be overqualified entrants in the Amateur races,
with quite often, the most overqualified entrant, emerging the victor.
But I looked at the USRA rules and determined it was beyond obvious that 3 of the most talented
builders and/or racers in the World neither qualified to race in Amateur or not race in Expert only.

At that point, knowing very well I was risking my relationship with both, I contacted Sano Dave direct by phone,
and later Ron, by voicemail, expressing my opinion of the matter and what I thought the reaction
of the general slot car community would be.

On Monday morning, still upset over probably severing my relationship with these 3 friends, colleagues,
co-racers or whatever they may consider I am to them, I was consoled by a phone call from
whom I consider the person I most respect in slot racing.
He said, this 19th year old kid , racing for probably less than a year, using a phrase of his, "a quintessential Amateur",
would of been the feelgood story of the Nat's.
I, of course, agreed and remembering how cool it was to call a 55 yr. old, Ricky D., "Mr. National Champion", weeks after his 2009 Nat's wins,
during our Saturday night races, and added something to the effect of:
"Round Eye Mike getting called "Mr. National Champion" for the next 4 days of the event,
would of had him walking on air and probably would hook the kid on slot racing for life.
And he's exactly what slot racing needs."

It would of made a special race even more special.

**swiss** · 04-14-2011, 05:44 AM

In his posts here on OWH, Ron seems to be dismayed thet he's taking more public flak over this than Dave Fiedler
and Rande. If it's any consolation to Ron, Sano Dave is taking more than his share, non-publicly.
My only explantion is why "more Ron" , Ron is a bigger fish.

Sano Dave is more of a local and Retro legend.
Ron, along with being IRRA retro racing's most frequent race winner, he is also a past USRA Expert National Champion.

Sano Dave is only a sponsored racer.
Ron has twice been a major manufacturer employee and, of course, a long time and current major manufacturer.

Sano Dave has virtually no presence on the slot car website's other than thanking raceways
for an enjoyable slot car experience.
Ron's presence on the 'blogs is quite a bit more vocal.

Last, and not trying to be funny, Sano Dave has a cool "nickname".

Over the last 6 days, knowing how upset Sano is over the situation, and myself upset, realizing I could lose him
as a friend, I've taken the stance this story needs to be told until it's resolved.

Despite speculating the AM. 4.5" thread might turn into what it is , almost as many views as all the other results threads, combined,
and many more posts, I commended Paul K. in a PM for keeping that thread open, which he has.

Also, despite not being a proponent of his style of journalism, while E-mailing J.P. Van Rossem some R4/4 F1 results he was missing, I made an
one line, off hand comment, "congratulating" him on getting the Division 2 story out.
He took that one line as an endorsement of his whole article and decided to use my name to give his story added credibility.
I angrily E-mailed JP, and I assume he took from my tone, while I whole-heartily agreed with the "M.Kaczmarski getting his win stolen" part,
to not assume I agreed with all his other assumptions and opinions. He removed my name from the article which I thank him for.

Finally, last but not least, earlier tonight, I PM'ed Big Mike Chmielewski with a "Good for you" acknowledgement.
It took a lot of courage, as an USRA official, to post his honest opinion of the AM. situation over the weekend,
in post #176 of the infamous AM 4.5" Nascar thread.

Speaking of USRA officials, there is a solution to this situation.
I hoping Milton, as the wise, strong individual, I and many others voted for, institutes it.
The sooner he does, the quicker this can be put to rest and the slot racing community can
go back to what it should be doing, celebrating the 2011 Champions, and positively
promoting the 2012 Nat's, so the event at Frank Sarkela's Slot Car Raceway can be the best it can be.

**glueside** · 04-14-2011, 06:00 AM

And the crowd goes wild, shouting "Swiss - Swiss - Swiss".

Very well written!!!

**oldweirdherald** · 04-14-2011, 06:39 AM

Mike - That was a very well thought out, well worded, and nicely written take on the situation...

While this situation has definitely pointed out some areas that could be improved, in the wording of the rules, and the way they are interpreted, there are still bound to be many different sides and opinions on the matter.

It may be very hard to draw the line at times between just what constitutes a "sponsored" racer, as opposed to a pro racer simply loaning equipment or pit help to a friend... also hard to draw the line between a "manufacturer" being a "pro" racer, where there are many examples of amateur level drivers who have decided to try their hand at marketing slot car products - rather then a seasoned pro who is selling products or services based on his "exceptional driving or technical ability".

Practically every Amateur racer, if they are fortunate enough, has an "expert" or "pro" friend or mentor or two who helps them out. In most cases, this is a GOOD thing, and how the newer or less experienced racers get better. I have had plenty of help from friends with equipment, pit help, & coaching over the years... even when I was racing as an Amateur or a Semi-Pro. It may be a tricky task to try to decide where we draw that line, between being loaned equipment and being a sponsored racer.

In some cases, however... that line has been clearly stepped over. And the argument that "everyone else is doing it, so it's ok for me" just doesn't wash. Some people got away with robbing banks or murder too, but does that mean it's ok?

For me, deciding where to draw the line in interpreting the existing rules seemed like a no-brainer.

As Mike had stated, I too, tried my hardest to keep my nose out of this one, in my case wrestling with my "objective host & moderator hat"... which I ultimately could not manage to keep on my head. I know I am the host & moderator of these forums - but I am first and foremost just another racer - and I am sincerely passionate about this hobby I have enjoyed nearly all of my life.

I also do not wish to piss off people whom I do respect and consider my friends, let alone manufacturers, raceway owners, club officers, and fellow racers whom I not only race with, but do business with as well. But in some cases, we all need to speak our mind, even if only to "agree to disagree", and then work towards preventing potential problems in the future.

The worst thing about this mess... is two things actually. First - that some "true" Amateur racers were denied the opportunity to shine, as they would have if the questionable racers had not entered and beat them.

Second - as I have said before... is that this ONE incident, this ONE rather small situation, has gotten way more response then perhaps it really should - thus drawing attention away from all the positive aspects of this magical event we get together a couple times each year called "The Nats".

The goal of this is event, and this hobby, is to have FUN. And I am very happy when I read & hear reports from those who were fortunate enough to attend, that they did indeed HAVE FUN.

Man... I swore I was going to just say "nice post Mike"... but as usual, once I'm on that old soap box, I never know when to shut up! So... I've said my piece...

I hope to see everyone at next year's Nats!!!

Question: - If I buy a fellow racer a beer at the Nats... does that make him a "Pro" beer drinker??? or can he still drink as an Amateur???

Paul K @ OWH

**mccr3328** · 04-14-2011, 07:11 AM

Mike I agree with ALL you said (but)

I was there I raced with Dave & Mike K. I know them both! I pit right next to mike and race with him every week!
This is not meant to take anything away from Mike or Dave
Dave is a Pro,
Mike is an expert
I AM AN AMATEUR!
Dave could out race me with a Rental car & Controller!
Mike out drives me EVERY SATURDAY NIGHT and has for over a year!
The only way I beat him is if he breaks down in the 4th heat!

GENERAL SCALE
COMPETITION REGULATIONS
I. Driver Classification Scale Division
A. Eurosport and GT-12
All drivers are encouraged to enter these classes regardless of ranking.
B. Driver Divisions
All classes except Eurosport and Junior will be divided into Amateur and Expert divisions.
1. Amateur Division
a) Racers with average driving or technical ability and newer racers.
b) At the National Championships, Amateur Division racers will use handout motors for all classes.
c) Junior class is for those 14 years of age and younger.
2. Expert Division
a) All drivers with exceptional driving or technical ability.
b) Any driver sponsored by a major manufacturer must race in this Division.
c) Any racer who has won in any Amateur class at the Scale Nationals

Dave has won big races!

Mike is 2 a

a) All drivers with exceptional driving or technical ability

I am definitely (just barely)

1 a
a) Racers with average driving or technical ability and newer racers.

Anyway I don't normally get into politics Had enough of that with RC car racing for many years!

I race for Fun & I learn a lot from guys like Mike & Dave

Not to add more to the Mix but the Amateur field is crowded with Excellent talent!
Racers who have THOUSAND'S of hours of trigger time & experience in racing.

The only way I see a solution is to have a novice class.
Racers (like me ) with limited experience
But then again who would know & track this?

I had a good time at the NATS !
Talking to a few other regular locals my biggest fear was that I was going to spoil some other drivers NATS experience by taking him OUT (And my worst nightmare came true) in the LMP B Main ,I think his name is Rich Attee I came off in the dead man on red ,right in front of Rich he hit me and snapped his guide flag

After the race I apologized and shook his hand ,Thats all I could do. Ruined his chances (he was the leader at the time!)

Enough story telling
I'll be back on saturday racing and PRACTICING! And most of all having FUN

**Ron Hershman** · 04-14-2011, 08:41 AM

Howie says this song says it all or one could say sums it all up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdn3O...mbedded#at=205

**mazur50** · 04-14-2011, 09:07 AM

No Steve.

Dave is Pro
Mike K is an Amateur and a very good learner
You are a Beginner and soon to be an Amateur.

The rules for Amateur should be very simple.
Any racer that has never won an Amateur or Pro Race in any division of the USRA is an Amateur
Any racer that has won a race at any other non USRA but major racing event IRRA/D3/ISRA/ISRAUSA/AMSRA and many others.
Any racer that is sponsored by a manufacture cannot race as an amateur.
Any racer that is a Manufacture of motors/chassis cannot race as an amateur.

**pilmat** · 04-14-2011, 09:24 AM

Mike, it is a simple error in your simple rules that points out how difficult the task really is. Per your first rule, if I win Amature Box this year I have to run every other class pro the next. I'm sure that is not what you intend, but it demonstrates that it is hard to draw a line in the sand and have it mean anything.

The real solution is to eliminate the amateur classes as there is no way to police the destination in drivers. But that goes against the principle that everyone should feel welcome at a race like this and that the greats and the weekend warriors can rub shoulders and race at the same event (but not against each other).

Ron's demonstration was as relevant as "screwing for virginity" but the massive response shows that we need to do something.

Personally I don't care for driver divisions, but if there is a group that wants them and WILL come to race if the divisions are there, then we need them. But if they won't come either way, get rid of them and we all race together.

Cheers, Phil.

**mazur50** · 04-14-2011, 09:33 AM

a Pro is a Pro. you win one race you are a pro.

Here is a question. Do you think I should race amateur GT12 when i won expert LMP and came in 3rd in expert GT12 because of a broken wire on my controller. I lost 5-7 laps on the controller change and only lost the race by 2-1/2 laps.

Wing racing is a different story because the am's build there own motors.

**pilmat** · 04-14-2011, 09:42 AM

Mike, we're on the same page here. By the way you looked like you were kicking but out here, kudos.

I think you are too severe on the win-one-you're-a-pro, but we have to draw the line somewhere, right? My issue is that when a real amateur beats other real amateurs, are they READY to make the move up to Expert? Theoretically you were the best amateur and not a borderline pro. So by forcing the move up, we might force someone out that could say "I'm not ready/willing to make the tech/$ upgrade to my program". So it's case by case, which is virtually impossible to do at the national level.

So that is my reasoning behind just removing the driver divisions, but that is my opinion and one that will not go far as long as I am not a voting USRA member.

Cheers, Phil.

**Ron Hershman** · 04-14-2011, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by swiss

Part 1

On Thursday night, when I saw the podium pic of the Am. LMP race, with a 19(?) year old kid standing next to
2 extremely accomplished builders and racers, I wanted to cry.

I scratched my head and wondered how this could happen.

How could this have happened......... they say history has a way of repeating it's self.

1995....... the Semi-Pro class winner won the class with a complete car you SUPPLIED him with. The rules at the time said "Factory Sponsored Racers" may only race in the Pro class. YOU were a Factory Employee and Team racer at the time. By giving the semi-pro racer your car.... that was factory sponsoring him at the time.

1994..... the second place finisher in Group 27 got bounced/D.Q'ed when his armature was found to have a short stack. The racer who got bounced had "borrowed" the motor from a Factory Employee at the time. Another case of "sponsorship" from a factory.

2001.... USRA Scale Nats..... National Group 27 Champion Neal Isler enters in Am Gr 10, AM GT-1, Am GTP and AM GT-12 classes. This was 7 years after he won his National Group 27 championship. This was also the same year Trinity Sponsored racer Ken Swanson entered into the AM classes at the same Nats.

Were you "wanting to cry" back then or are you just getting sentimental in your advance age?

Did Mike Iga winning Am GT-12 this year over a couple of kids stir any emotions in you at the time or when you read about it?

**Ron Hershman** · 04-14-2011, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by mazur50

No Steve.

The rules for Amateur should be very simple.
Any racer that has never won an Amateur or Pro Race in any division of the USRA is an Amateur
Any racer that has won a race at any other non USRA but major racing event IRRA/D3/ISRA/ISRAUSA/AMSRA and many others.
Any racer that is sponsored by a manufacture cannot race as an amateur.
Any racer that is a Manufacture of motors/chassis cannot race as an amateur.

Agreed, but it should include any racer that has entered a Pro or Expert race.

Any racer that produces or manufactures slot racing products can not race as an amateur. Not just motor and chassis MFG's. Being a MFG of anything in slot racing opes the door to other endless possibilities that will lead to a performance advantage.