.

.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18

Thread: Tweener & Twixter / 1309-C

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    484

    Tweener & Twixter / 1309-C

    Okay. So, I’ve been busting my B-Hind to get A-Head this semester. The hope (delusion) was I might be able to have a little fun during Spring Break. Since none of the college babes have asked me to go to Cabo with them, I guess I’ll be hanging out with the rest of the older kids playing with toy cars. “It don’t cost very much, but it lasts a long while…”

    Actually, I got far enough ahead to crank out a Ret-Ro chassis I warned y’all about back on the dusty 1307-C thread. I wanted to get these done before heading off to the GRRR races at the Viper Pit in Thomasville GA (Saturday 3/26; worth the trip if ya can make it!). The problem with the academic hiatus from slot cars is it affords me way too much time to ponder lots of ideas and designs. But I really wanted to knock out the1308-C and/or 1309-C to better gauge the design changes between the 1306-C and the 1307-C.

    To help answer the “1306-C/1307-C conundrum”, this was the plan. The 1308-C would have the standard center-guide section of the 1306-C, with the stepped side pans of the 1307-C. Conversely, the 1309-C would have the narrow center-guide section of the 1307-C, with the peripheral-wire-outer/brass-inner side pans of the 1306-C. Both chassis have almost identical main-rail/front-wing designs, with both using the “damper” main rails (which I see others have coined as “Z-rails”; a rose by any other name…). Then I got to thinkin’ again, and figured I might be able to get away with just building the 1309-C…

    It also occurred to me I haven’t posted any build pics in a while. Granted, no one has actually requested this, but I figured it might help to forestall any additional grumblings that these chassis are “too complicated”. Really, if any of ya have any questions, all ya gotta do is ask. (Besides, I only make fun of the one’s who are overly serious about this stuff; you know…) And, admittedly the designs took a serious change in relative complexity back around the 1219 and 1220 anyway, so one or two of ya might actually be interested to actually see how I’m building my krap...

    This will be one of those overly long multiple-post threads; consider yourself forewarned. So get a cup a coffee or two if you’re interested. Let’s get this show on the road…

    1309-C Build Sequence, Part 1:
    All wire used is 0.047” unless otherwise noted; okay? Photo captions are above each picture…

    Picture 1: Here’s the design sheet (just the 1307-C design with the side pan changes penciled in) laid out with the 4-bend front spanning wire in place.



    Picture 2: My Jurassic-period Champion Align-O-Jig in place with the rear axle tube.



    Picture 3: First are the two damper main-rails on each side (all 1-bend with an upright bend) running from the rear axle tube forward but NOT soldered to the front spanning wire.



    Picture 4: Next part of the damper system main rails is a straight wire soldered to the front of the first two wires (again NOT the front spanning wire).



    Picture 5: Finally a 1-bend wire is soldered to the rear of the straight wire, and soldered to the front spanning wire.



    Picture 6: Here’s the completed damper main rails without the jig in the way, so hopefully you can see it better.



    Pictures 7, 8 & 9: The wire framing for the front wings are built. Four wires each side; three are 2-bend, and one is only 1-bend.






  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    484
    1309-C Build Sequence, Part 2:

    Picture 10: The front wings are done. Now it’s time for the “perimeter” wire outer side “pan”. First the outer 2-bend wire.



    Picture 11: And the inner 1-bend inner wire completes the frame for the “perimeter” wire outer side “pans”.



    Picture 12: Time to build the center-guide section. This is assembled inside the frame, but not attached at this time. First are 3-bend wires (with 1 upright bend) running from the rear axle tube to another approximately ½” piece of wire, forming a “T” at the guide end.



    Picture 13: A 2-bend wire is now flanked to each side of the first center-guide wires. For reference the uninstalled right wire is at the bottom of the picture.



    Picture 14: Here’s the center-guide section frame completed. The result is a section that is only four pieces of 0.047” wire wide along its length.



    Picture 15: Next are the frame wires for the center-guide section pans. Each of these are two 1-bend pieces of 0.039” wire, made to fit between the center-guide frame and the damper wires.



    Picture 16: The frames are used to pattern a piece of 0.010” brass sheet that is cut out and soldered to each frame. (Yes, due to different rate of expansion/contraction of brass and steel, they will warp a little when soldering, but are easily flattened.) The pans are trimmed to ensure a good fit; there should be minimal space between the pans and surrounding framing allowing free movement.



    Picture 17: The pans are soldered to the center-guide frame. They are only soldered behind the “T” to about 0.625” along the four center wires, so the back of the pans will move freely.



    Picture 18: OOPS!!! I forgot to take the guide tongue assembly pics. My bad… As with all my chassis, a piece of 0.025” brass is soldered to the top of the center-guide frame and then a Slick 7 guide tongue (S7-25) is soldered above that.

    Now the entire center-guide assembly is soldered into the chassis, again with minimal spacing along the damper rails and front spanning wire to allow for movement. The center-guide section is only soldered to the chassis frame along the rear inside of the inner damper rails and the uprights attach to the rear axle tube.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    484
    1309-C Build Sequence, Part 3:

    Picture 19: Motor box time. I just use four wires to frame the mini-me motors. The inner first two (one soldered in place) are 1-bend with an upright bend; the outer two run parallel to them with only an upright bend. The motor box upright bends attach to the rear of the rear axle tube (whereas the damper rails and center-guide section had attached to the front of the rear axle tube).



    Picture 20: I like to add a small piece of wire to each side of the motor box. These help cradle the motor perfectly. (Side note: Some of you, looking at this motor box design I’ve been using since the 90’s for inlines, might be able to understand my “confusion” when I heard motor brackets were required for Ret-Ro racing. Not that it matters though; it just seemed pointless to me…)



    Picture 21: And finally the rear “gear-guard” (a single 4-bend spanning wire that rise to deflect any rear impact away from the crown gear) and a 2-bend spreader wire atop that to the outer tops of the axle tube. Oh, yeah, there’s the mandatory motor bracket, a modified JK D3-F122, ready to go in next.



    Picture 22: There’s actually a lot going on in this picture. First, a small piece of 0.032” wire is attached to the rear of each center-guide section pan to act as down-stops. Next, a piece of 0.032” wire is soldered to the outer damper main rails (only); this spanning wire acts as an up-stop for the front of the center-guide section and for the front of the unattached damper main rails. Finally three 0.024” spring wires are attached to the center-guide frame and to each of the unattached damper main rails; these “spring” wires keep the damper rails and center-guide section flush with the plane of the chassis bottom when in a resting position.



    Picture 23: Now two small pieces of 1/8” square brass tube are soldered to each rear main rail assembly just forward of the “kink”; these are the up- and down-stops (“restrictors”) for the wire perimeter side “pans”; a 2-bend piece of 0.055” wire is soldered to rear of the perimeter wire pans extending into the restrictor box at the inside-bottom. The wire rests on the rear of the unattached damper rails, acting as their up-stop.



    Picture 24: I use a small 2-bend piece of 0.032” attached to the rear unattached damper rails and resting atop the restrictor box to act as a down-stop for the damper rails.



    Picture 25: Same as with the center-guide pans, the frames are made for the inner side pans (dang, forgot another photo…) of 0.039” wire, consisting of a 2-bend outer wire, a 1-bend inner wire and a 1-bend center wire. The pan frame is used to pattern the 0.010” brass sheet, which is cut and attached. And again, the pan is trimmed to allow minimal spacing between it and the perimeter wire pan to allow for movement.



    Picture 26: Before attaching the inner side pans, I attach my spring-loaded rear pin mounts to the perimeter pan. Each of these consist of a 1/16” brass tube with a 1/16” id collar attached to a 2-bend piece of 0.024” wire. The pin tube is set to butt against the restrictor box (this prevents any adverse movement of the body onto the top of the chassis; I’ve never found any reason to restrict the pin tube moving outward), and the spring wires are soldered to the perimeter wire pan 1.125” forward of the pin tube position. The one in the foreground is in place; an unattached one can be seen in the (blurry) background.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    484
    1309-C Build Sequence, Finale:

    Picture 27: I mark the inner side pans below the rear pin tubes and give them a little grind down to ensure the spring mounted rear pin tubes only rest on the outer perimeter wire pan (and not the inner pan, as this will raise the outer pan). Then the inner pans are soldered to the front “V” of the outer perimeter pan.



    Picture 28: As with the damper rail rears, a 3-bend piece of 0.032” wires is attached to the rear of each of the inner side pans, and set to rest on the top of the restrictor box. These are the inner side pan down stops.



    Picture 29: Now 0.024” spring wires are attached to the main frame and set to sit atop the down-stops for the rear damper and inner side pan. These ensure the components stay in the plane of the chassis bottom when in a resting position. (Also, a greater force is now required to raise these components than is required to raise the perimeter wire pans.)



    Picture 30: Now for the front axle uprights. I use spanning axle supports fore and aft of the front axle; these add to the left-right rigidity of the frame (which was previously only maintained by the single front spanning wire), as well as make a quick and easy way to mount and change front axles. Both are 4-bend wires, and they really get easy to make with lots of practice… I use my “dummy axle” (made by and named after myself) to set the upright position.



    Picture 31: The only things left are the fixed mid and front pin tubes shown attached here. At this point it is ready for some trimming and a quick bath.



    Pictures 32, 33, & 34: So here it is, ready for RTR set up.







    For those inquiring minds out there, it weighs 52.0 grams as it sits in the above pics. Not a lightweight, but what does that matter with “these” chassis anyway…

    Well, I hope all this was of even minor interest to at least someone out there in e-slotcar-land. Bet you thought it would never end… Once I get this thing some test laps versus the 1306-C and 1307-C, I’ll bore y’all senseless with that outcome too.

    “That’s all folks!”

    Rick

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Everett, Wa.
    Posts
    520

    Thumbs up Wondering where you was..

    Very nice camera work. This is the easiest to follow you have done to date I'd say, so simple a Caveman could do it! Good job. I like seeing the loose part and installed location in the same photo, I think that will help anyone duplicate what you are doing.

    So we go from the guide back to the motor box, then forward on two rails (built first) then back alongside on one rail then forward on to the cross bar wing/butterfly then back along the to the outer body mtg structure which is unattached at the rear.

    The guide and front wing structure are both free to move, correct?, even though the guide rests on top.

    So have you (or what # ) built one that goes
    1 guide to rear connection
    2 forward to front connection then
    3 a) back to motor box and simultaneously b) back to ouside body structure which then goes forward connects the two outside structures at the front wing area?

    This creates a 3 fold path between the guide and motor and a 2 fold path (hey new term "Fold path") upto the wing area.
    I'd call what you built a 1 fold path between the guide and motor and a 4 fold path upto the wing area.
    If that clears up anything I've said.

    Going now to my brother's for a free dinner (I supply beverage)

    Guy
    Guy Middleton
    Everything I was taught in Engineering school I had already learned from slot cars....

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    484
    Guy,

    Yeah, I built the one you described, and it was also my first using the damper main rails. The no rules version is the 1219-A; the Ret-Ro version is the 1219-C (I never got 'round to making the full-pan 1304 version). They have the wider center-guide section, though I would like to incorporate the narrow center-guide section in a similar design. The 1219's like to hit the marks dead-on, and they fly. If you're off, they let you know how good a driver you are (quick study for me...). Design-wise it was too big of a step for me, so I had to back-track. If I ever get the current questions resolved, at some point I'll head back to that concept again.

    Dinner time!!

    Rick

    PS
    The guide tongue sits atop the sandwiched piece of 0.025" brass over the frame. This in effect gives the guide 0.025" of vertical travel. Since it is not a drop arm, this actually translates into side-to-side "twist". That's in quotations since it is actually the front assembly/wings that are doing the moving in relation to the guide which is "fixed" (relatively) to the motor box assembly. At least that's the theory...

    Dessert time!!
    Last edited by CMF3; 03-10-2011 at 05:45 PM. Reason: moron forgot half the answer

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Wesley Chapel, FL.
    Posts
    1,385

    Thumbs up



    Damn RICK....Ya just have to show us up.....GO BACK TO SCHOOL.....

    I am jelouse...I can't even come close to your building. Even after looking at your cars and holding then. I am just starting to understand your thinking. Don't even want to try to compete in the building of one.......Now...If I can TALK you out of one of your chassis hint-hint...

    Have fun up there & make sure they know you were there...Give Joey a good scratch...

    OLPHRT
    PHIL I.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    484
    Hey Phil, come on up to the Viper Pit and I’ll set ya up! I honestly don’t post these things up as some sort of egomaniacal competition (that’s what the racing of ‘em is for); I just want to share with others (all two or three of ya ) what I’m designing and why, how I’m building them, and the outcome of it all. There are a lot of guys out there making much prettier chassis than I make (by the way, what is this “tumbler” thing; I thought it was a glass in which one pours their frosty beverage… ). Maybe it’s just because I’ve been building this stuff for a while, but it really isn’t as difficult as it may seem.

    Anyway, for the really bored, and perversely curious, below are the roller pics for the 1309-C, and the chassis diagram with the usual “dark lines” showing where adjoining wires are NOT soldered together.







    I like roller pics. Sorry…

    The specs, which I didn’t include before, are pretty standard as my Ret-Ro builds go: Maximum width is 3.10”; wheelbase is 4.00”; RAX-GPC is 4.75”. As pictured the roller chassis is 70.9 grams; that should put the RTR car at about 104 grams (no comment).

    Any questions? (Besides, “Is this guy ever going to give it a rest?” )

    Rick

    PS
    Joey got his scratch…

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Evansville, IN
    Posts
    42
    Nice one Rick. I wouldn't be able to do the drawing, let alone the chassis. My skills just aren't at that level. I admit it, I cheat, I use kits.
    Slot Racing since '63.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    484

    1309-C Update

    Finally got to the track today, blah blah blah (oops, wrong thread…)

    So, I played… dang it, I mean, tested the 1309-C today versus the 1307-C and 1306-C (and the as yet un-posted 1310-C, but that’s another story that ain’t done yet…). I figured, since the 1309-C had design components from the 1307-C and 1306-C, it would fall somewhere in between the two for performance. I think I need to fix my “figurer”, as once again I have confirmed I have no idea what I think I’m doing. (Kind of like figuring I would be approaching retirement age, but instead being back in college… Obviously my “figuring” track record extends to all aspects of my life, blah blah blah…)

    Point being the 1309-C is actually better than either the 1307-C or the 1306-C. Or at least it was today… Now this was on the King, and with all cars set up as Ret-Ro Can Am’s. Not only was the 1309-C better handling and faster, but when I ran it on the black and red gutter lanes it ran as fast as or faster than the middle lanes (!?!?). And did it real easily. I would run the “older” chassis cars for a bunch of laps, and get their best time, then stick on the 1309-C and clobber those lap times within 2 or 3 laps…

    I also ran them on the Humongous Hillclimb, but here the differences are less noticeable. Besides, until someone can beat the 1305-C on this track, I just run everything else over there for S&G’s…

    So, initial observations would lead me to believe the improvement in handling is mostly due to the “narrow” center-guide section frame, and not the “stepped” inner-outer side pans (in 1307-C terms; man, this is confusing; now you know why I had to start numbering the suckers…). I think…

    All these builds, the 1305-C, 1219-C, 1220-C, 1306-C, 1307-C, 1309-C and 1310-C, are all very comparable, so when I consider different classes, tracks, track conditions, it’s just nice to have the out-of-the-box selection that covers a wide range of those considerations. Makes all the blah blah blah finger burning worthwhile…

    And fun too!

    Rick

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    by a Great Lake
    Posts
    603
    Quote Originally Posted by CMF3 View Post
    Finally got to the track today, blah blah blah (oops, wrong thread…)
    (in 1307-C terms; man, this is confusing; now you know why I had to start numbering the suckers…). I think…

    Rick

    You might number them, but I don't believe anyone but you understands the system if there's even is one?

    Can you post the guide to the nomenclature blah, blah, blah
    NONE

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Tampa
    Posts
    484
    The numbering system is for my benefit mostly blah blah... explained once, people in comas blah blah

    Blah blah it does help others keep them straight too; all my OWH Scratchbuilding threads have titles with the chassis number.

    And for a quick-pic reference, in my profile there is the photo album "Hitchhikers Guide to CMF3 Scratchbuild Chassis":

    http://www.slotcartalk.com/slotcarta....php?albumid=8

    Stupid blah blah numbers...

    Rick (aka CBlahBlah3)
    Last edited by CMF3; 03-20-2011 at 07:08 AM. Reason: brain farts

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Umatilla, Fl
    Posts
    1,199
    Rick,

    Thank you very much for taking the time out to post something so complete and useful.

    I started one of these chassis up and while it is taking me longer then normal, it is coming along just fine.

    The more I am looking at and understanding this type of construction, the more impressed I am with your design capabilities!

    So, your numbering scheme uses +1 type of numbering on a designated base. Pretty simple to understand as I lived in an environment like that.

    Most large desigs - either in size or amounts of use a similar type of system. Very well thought out sir.
    Florida Slotter, aka Marty Stanley,
    A "Double 60's" Slot Racer
    Killer X Raceways Team Racer

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    North East Florida
    Posts
    29
    Simply amazing CMF3. I have never attempted anything like this. This is a whole new way to enjoy my hobby that I think may enlighten my way.
    Our forefathers engineered cars like this with insight on road course dynamics and it should be our privilege to continue the quest with handmade retro chassis.
    Guess I need to brush up on my soldering skills.
    Thank you for your efforts here.
    Charles Ray Neal, aka TorqueMutant

    Taking lives is something I definitely find offensive!
    But roughing up criminal terrorists a bit doesn't faze me at all! - Superman

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Wesley Chapel, FL.
    Posts
    1,385

    Thumbs up


    RICK,

    Have you tried it yet? Did it work as pland? Are us MORTLS in slot car trouble?

    OLPHRT
    PHIL I.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •