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View Poll Results: 4.5 NASCAR, Group 10 and LMP, combine into a single driver division, no amateur/expert split.

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • In favor of this change

    3 15.79%
  • Not in favor of this change

    16 84.21%
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Thread: Usra division ii rules

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KVAN View Post
    Yes...... well maybe!



    If you have trophies and podium photos of all the mains then you have multiple main winners. How is that different than multiple class winners of smaller classes.
    Totally agreed and more of this needs to be done in slot racing.
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  2. #32
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    Maybe the poll should have been who could have voted and didn't?

    There were 60 to 70 guys that became members at this year Nats and were to get a notification to vote based on the e-mail address you gave when you became a member.

    Maybe some didn't give a e-mail address.

    If only 50% or so voted...that's 30 to 35 guys who actually did take the time to vote.

    How many guys may not have voted on issues that didn't affect the classes they are racing in?

    There were more Am's that probably voted than Pro's as there were more Am's at the Nats who became members versus pro's.

    How many Pro's who may only race in the Euro Sport classes and don't care about the stamped steel classes, didn't vote on the hand out classes?

    There is no requirement that one has to vote nor is there a rule that a member has to vote on all the issues.

    How many guys didn't probably even vote on the GT 12 chassis deal when they don't race or even care about Gt-12?
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  3. #33
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    Ain't DEMOCRACY a great thing?

    Unless of course the final decision is NOT what you wanted
    Zippity

    "Rules are written by FEAR; and that Racers are motivated by the Fear that somebody may have something that gives others an Edge." - Rocky Russo



  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.GoFast View Post
    I wonder how many Keyboard racers they are?
    You probably meant to say: I wonder how many Keyboard racers there are?

    I don't know... but brassy's not one of them. Other than referring to the wing car "nats" as div. 2 there's not a word in that post that isn't on the nose. And even if he were a keyboard racer (we can tell you're using it in a derogatory sense), you don't have to be Heifitz to know when someone's butchering a violin (too obscure a reference for you? Sorry, showing my age.) The USRA is its own worst enemy and this back and forth @#&$ with the rules is counterproductive, to say the least. For everyone's sake, can the parties to these discussions at least agree to think before filling this discussion board with ill-considered nonsense?

    I have a nagging feeling I'm going to regret this.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by fxgeorge View Post
    Please Ron, this poll is not about the handout motors. If you have some views about eliminating the division of amateur and pro racers from these classes, that would be the topic of this thread. Thanks.

    George
    Hi George....

    No problem and understood.

    Would it have been better to just eliminate Pro Stock Car, Pro 4.5" and Pro LMP and just made those classes for Am's only and throw out the pro's and their classes out?

    Like I said in another post...... why have a class for 10 to 15 guys and classes that are not growing and not even raced at the majority of raceways out there? By running 3 "pro" classes, it extends the schedule another one to two days to run these 10 to 15 guys.

    That makes it longer and more costly for all of us who attend.

    Why not combine the classes and use hand out motors? Shortens the schedule and makes it less costly for all attending. That's a big plus.

    Those "pros" who don't want to race hand out classes or race with the Am's...... well there are six other classes they can still race in.....or they can come and race in all 8 classes. No one id forcing anyone to run any of the classes offered at the Nats. It's free choice for all.

    Here is the bottom line.... 30 to 35 guys voted...not all were Pro's and I suspect the majority of those voting were mainly Am's. If the combining of the classes has happened through the voting...then some of the Am's had to vote for combining the classes.

    That's the only way they could have got combined. If all the Am's would have been against it..... then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

    Your are a "pro" George..... did you vote on combining the classes?? Or did you just vote on the classes that affect your racing?
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  6. #36
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    Oh and one more thing George..... how many posting in this thread were actually USRA members and could vote?

    If they were not members and didn't vote..... no discussion for them as they were not involved by first being a member and second by voting.
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippity View Post
    Ain't DEMOCRACY a great thing?

    Unless of course the final decision is NOT what you wanted
    Of course not Ron. Everyone who could have voted should have.... there were plenty of notices that the vote was coming and what to do if you didn't get a ballot and who to contact about getting one. Some could have become members and voted too.
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hershman View Post
    Oh and one more thing George..... how many posting in this thread were actually USRA members and could vote?

    If they were not members and didn't vote..... no discussion for them as they were not involved by first being a member and second by voting.
    Very good point!

    Anyways I do think many amateurs will be amazed how well they do against Experts. I think in the end, even if we disagree with the rule changes, we should all show up at Franks and submit more proposals and just keep improving participation. If more people race and more racers buy memberships, Democracy works better. We can get a better understanding of what we want as an organization with 300 votes over 30 votes. Frank will put on an amazing race regardless of the rules and I know we can all go and have fun. Really if more show up and show support the racing is more fun no matter what rules we all disagree with. We cant allow politics take away from what should be the biggest race of the year for most of us. We dont deserve that as racers and Frank doesnt deserve that. More racers is key to everything. Better Democracy and more fun racing. Optimism is key
    "Dub" Wade
    Nampa, ID
    208-392-0639
    dustynwade@ymail.com
    Dub Motors, Dub Rides, Dub Winged bodies, PMP Chassis, Paint by Odie, Bone Bodies.
    Of course Balance by Beuf
    3rd Eye Controllers

  9. #39
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    Sorry, I had assumed that those bitchin' here had already cast their vote and were just sore losers.

    And yes, I am entitled to vote and I did
    Zippity

    "Rules are written by FEAR; and that Racers are motivated by the Fear that somebody may have something that gives others an Edge." - Rocky Russo



  10. #40
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    As Miltie will confirm, I am a current member and did vote, too.

  11. #41
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    And there you have it.... Brassy and Zippy both are members and voted.... neither went to the race and signed up.

    Maybe and just maybe...more members who didn't go to the Nats voted.

    So maybe more non nats attendees voted than guys who were actually at the race.
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hershman View Post
    And there you have it.... Brassy and Zippy both are members and voted.... neither went to the race and signed up.

    Maybe and just maybe...more members who didn't go to the Nats voted.

    So maybe more non nats attendees voted than guys who were actually at the race.
    Maybe if those who didnt attend got the rules changed to their liking and they will be at franks? That would be cool.
    "Dub" Wade
    Nampa, ID
    208-392-0639
    dustynwade@ymail.com
    Dub Motors, Dub Rides, Dub Winged bodies, PMP Chassis, Paint by Odie, Bone Bodies.
    Of course Balance by Beuf
    3rd Eye Controllers

  13. #43
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    I voted for the future

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by fxgeorge View Post
    I'm trying to understand the logic of this explanation, let me see if I can paraphrase it, Rich. You think that what happened at the 2011 Nats was unacceptable (B.S.) so you decided to make what was unacceptable a new rule? Another way of putting it, you are so put off by the whole thing, you voted for what you originally didn't believe was right? Just trying to figure out the logic of how you voted. Kind of interesting to note that we have a few votes in the poll for the proposals. Anyone else care to share your thinking on your yes vote?

    Here's a request people, if somebody wants to start another poll about the handout motors, go ahead, but that is not what this thread is about. We are discussing the topics on my first post.
    If I know before I get there that I will be racing against whoever wants to race I don't have to worry about who is a am./pro. So at least I will be prepaired for that and not wondering who is a am. and who is a pro. I did not want the group 10 nascar to be a handout motor, but that was not a separate vote
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]RICH
    THE GROOVE RACEWAY (check out my home page) and PSC race team
    PRECISION SLOT CARS CHASSIS FIXTURES, BUILD THEM TO WIN!

  15. #45
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    Oops, I happened to remember that page 49 of the 2011 rulebook says this:

    B. Driver Divisions
    All classes except Eurosport and Junior will be divided into Amateur and Expert divisions.
    1. Amateur Division
    a) Racers with average driving or technical ability and newer racers.
    b) At the National Championships, Amateur Division racers will use handout motors for all classes.
    c) Junior class is for those 14 years of age and younger.
    2. Expert Division
    a) All drivers with exceptional driving or technical ability.
    b) Any driver sponsored by a major manufacturer must race in this Division.
    c) Any racer who has won in any Amateur class at the Scale Nationals must race Expert Division in all classes at any future Nats.

    This almost implies, as Ron H suggested earlier, that by virtue of the fact 4.5" NASCAR, NASCAR and LMP are handout motor classes, then this means they are only amateur classes. But, at the same time it also means the proposals that passed contradict this section of the rulebook.

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