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View Poll Results: 4.5” NASCAR, Group 10 and LMP, combine into a single driver division, no amateur/expert split.

Voters
19. You may not vote on this poll
  • In favor of this change

    3 15.79%
  • Not in favor of this change

    16 84.21%
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Thread: Usra division ii rules

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by fxgeorge View Post
    Oops, I happened to remember that page 49 of the 2011 rulebook says this:

    B. Driver Divisions
    All classes except Eurosport and Junior will be divided into Amateur and Expert divisions.
    1. Amateur Division
    a) Racers with average driving or technical ability and newer racers.
    b) At the National Championships, Amateur Division racers will use handout motors for all classes.
    c) Junior class is for those 14 years of age and younger.
    2. Expert Division
    a) All drivers with exceptional driving or technical ability.
    b) Any driver sponsored by a major manufacturer must race in this Division.
    c) Any racer who has won in any Amateur class at the Scale Nationals must race Expert Division in all classes at any future Nats.

    This almost implies, as Ron H suggested earlier, that by virtue of the fact 4.5" NASCAR, NASCAR and LMP are handout motor classes, then this means they are only amateur classes. But, at the same time it also means the proposals that passed contradict this section of the rulebook.
    NO the proposals were written to "combine" the drivers with no split of Am or Pro. So the rule was voted in to change this part of the rule book that you have posted.

    Now there is no Am or Pro classes at the Scale Nats....... they are just classes and anyone is welcome to race in any of the classes at the Nats in the future.

    The proposals that passed may have "contradicted" the rule book as it was, but once they were voted in, they have become rules and have now changed this portion of the rulebook.

    All of the above except for the Junior Gr 10 mention, is now changed and changed according to the rules and by-laws.
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  2. #47
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    Are these classes going to be run on a King or a Flat Track at next years Division 2 Nats?
    Amateur LMP was on the King and Expert LMP was on the Monster this year.

    These are 2 completely different styles of racing.
    I consider myself to be an expert on a King, but I am a novice on a Flat Track.

  3. #48
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    I think that decision is made by the host raceway.
    Michael Mazur
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  4. #49
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    Well, once again it is becoming obvious that Ron Hershman is eternally “right” and the rest of us do not know any better, so this will be my last statement on this thread. Best to return to building and racing slotcars and, as usual, write off USRA as another unfortunate chapter in the human condition.

    What is wrong with the rule change combining amateur and expert? First of all, when I read the ballot, I literally could not even believe that this came up as a proposal. Kind of like all those in favor of blowing up the World Trade Center, please vote yes, those against vote no. Of course I voted against it and I assumed most sane people would also vote against it, so I didn’t even bring it up for discussion on this blog.

    Why is this the 9-11 for this year’s USRA. Just go back and read what Fred Hood said. And, you should have been at Slot Car Raceway the day this was released so you could have witnessed in person how Frank feels about it….I was there. Here is point number one, the specific situation of this Nats that I guess nobody knew about when they voted. In the case of the 2012 USRA Scale Nats, we were working together with the N. Calif Slot Car Racing Assn, aka “NORCAL” to weave their schedule and their rules into the USRA so they would attend the Nats. This is roughly 35 racers who have a 10 race, 10 month schedule and their series is divided into Novice, Advanced, Expert and Pro. On a bad month they have 85 entries for four classes in a single day. On a good day they have 125+ entries on a single day. All races run as round robins, double rotation (out on white and purple). Fred Hood is referring to the fact that you have now killed the possibility of these 35 racers attending the Nats. They even changed their rules after many years of running .518” max diameter arms to now run .540” arms, and to run USRA bodies in LMP. Frank is demoralized, steamed, incredulous that the proposal would pass because now he sees a turnout more like Jonathan Forsyth predicts….yes, the race will take a short time because NORCAL will not run and therefore the number of entries will be the usual dismal amount.

    That is the specific disaster of this rule change. My own personal view is more based on how it is morally sick. At least USRA had it right on page 49. Why? Somebody understood that by having two driving levels you can encourage the local crowd to attend the Nats. Wasn’t that the rationale originally? I know that with the new combined levels, the Pros who have sick minds know that they will take the race bucks for a ton of entries. Little Bobby 10 year old Champion Turboflex racer thinks it’s cool he will run at the Nats but doesn’t realize his race entry fee is going to sick minded Pro Racer. Oh yeah, don’t give me that argument some local racer can beat one of the country’s top pros with a handout motor…..the pros can outdrive anyone, and their chassis/body set up will be superior. No sir, that Pro will collect the big paycheck at the end of the race. Again, little Bobby will not know this, but I know it, and I think it is sick and immoral. I think that’s the way many people felt at the 2011 Nats when something similar happened, many of us reached for the anti-nausea medication. As a former track owner, I understand the wisdom of the separate driver levels. This is one thing that made sense in the USRA rules. OK, time to turn the soldering iron on and get back to work.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by fxgeorge View Post
    Well, once again it is becoming obvious that Ron Hershman is eternally “right” and the rest of us do not know any better, so this will be my last statement on this thread. Best to return to building and racing slotcars and, as usual, write off USRA as another unfortunate chapter in the human condition.

    What is wrong with the rule change combining amateur and expert? First of all, when I read the ballot, I literally could not even believe that this came up as a proposal. Kind of like all those in favor of blowing up the World Trade Center, please vote yes, those against vote no. Of course I voted against it and I assumed most sane people would also vote against it, so I didn’t even bring it up for discussion on this blog.

    Why is this the 9-11 for this year’s USRA. Just go back and read what Fred Hood said. And, you should have been at Slot Car Raceway the day this was released so you could have witnessed in person how Frank feels about it….I was there. Here is point number one, the specific situation of this Nats that I guess nobody knew about when they voted. In the case of the 2012 USRA Scale Nats, we were working together with the N. Calif Slot Car Racing Assn, aka “NORCAL” to weave their schedule and their rules into the USRA so they would attend the Nats. This is roughly 35 racers who have a 10 race, 10 month schedule and their series is divided into Novice, Advanced, Expert and Pro. On a bad month they have 85 entries for four classes in a single day. On a good day they have 125+ entries on a single day. All races run as round robins, double rotation (out on white and purple). Fred Hood is referring to the fact that you have now killed the possibility of these 35 racers attending the Nats. They even changed their rules after many years of running .518” max diameter arms to now run .540” arms, and to run USRA bodies in LMP. Frank is demoralized, steamed, incredulous that the proposal would pass because now he sees a turnout more like Jonathan Forsyth predicts….yes, the race will take a short time because NORCAL will not run and therefore the number of entries will be the usual dismal amount.

    That is the specific disaster of this rule change. My own personal view is more based on how it is morally sick. At least USRA had it right on page 49. Why? Somebody understood that by having two driving levels you can encourage the local crowd to attend the Nats. Wasn’t that the rationale originally? I know that with the new combined levels, the Pros who have sick minds know that they will take the race bucks for a ton of entries. Little Bobby 10 year old Champion Turboflex racer thinks it’s cool he will run at the Nats but doesn’t realize his race entry fee is going to sick minded Pro Racer. Oh yeah, don’t give me that argument some local racer can beat one of the country’s top pros with a handout motor…..the pros can outdrive anyone, and their chassis/body set up will be superior. No sir, that Pro will collect the big paycheck at the end of the race. Again, little Bobby will not know this, but I know it, and I think it is sick and immoral. I think that’s the way many people felt at the 2011 Nats when something similar happened, many of us reached for the anti-nausea medication. As a former track owner, I understand the wisdom of the separate driver levels. This is one thing that made sense in the USRA rules. OK, time to turn the soldering iron on and get back to work.
    No George not right...just pointing how proposals that get voted in changes the rules as they are or were.

    Hey I made 12 or 13 proposals and not one of them got to be voted on as they didn't pass the BOD committee.

    The proposals we did vote on, Milton discussed these at the scale meeting at the nats...were you not paying attention?? All the proposals ( 20 or so ) were discussed at that meeting.... only 5 made it pass the BOD committee to be voted on by the membership.

    Yes it would make sense in the future that the rules were decided before raceways placed their bids for the Nats so the raceways wanting the Nats knew what they would be racing at the next nats. But that has not how it has been since 1998. The rules get voted in and implemented the following nats. This is nothing new.

    While Frank may be pissed that the rule(s) passed... did Frank vote against the rules or even vote on the rules? If anyone DID NOT vote, then they shouldn't be surprised, pissed or mad if something passed they didn't vote on. I am sure there were some who voted against these rules as there were enough that voted and now has changed these rules. Then again..... 50 % or so DID NOT even vote at all. Who's fault is that George? The majority rules once again.... good or bad.

    While some may think the USRA had it right on page 49, someone proposed to change page 49 and the majority WHO ACTUALLY voted went along with it.

    In regards to USRA LMP bodies..... all that are on the current list are no longer legal. Remember at the meeting when it was discussed that the body MFG's had to go to a new "spec" wing for 2012??? So new bodies/molds have been made and submitted. Again...... what has been legal...is no longer legal for USRA LMP class.

    When USRA scale was started there was no Am or Pro..... everyone raced in classes. Then it was split up to try and grow it and it didn't work.... all we got was more races and more days to run the nats and some wonder why not many go to the nats like they used to when we ran 5 or 6 classes in 3 to 4 days.

    Remember your nats George.... over 200 entries in 5 classes with 7 races ran in 4 days. No Am/pro split.

    This past year and many past Nats we barely got 200 entries for 10 classes and 14 races spread over 6 to 9 days.
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  6. #51
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    Wow, I leave town for a few days and all hell breaks loose. Just like a chronic alcoholic, The USRA seems to be content with heading down the path to self destruction.

    While I understand the theory of reducing the amount of time involved (days) it takes to run the nats, I find it completely asinine to effectively eliminate the most popular classes in which an amateur has a chance to bring home a small prize for their efforts. One would think that the powers that be would at least be intelligent enough to realize that these new rule sets are going to hurt participation and reduce the number of entry's. I always thought the rules where written to promote participation and the hobby of slot car racing. I guess that pattern of thought was way off base. One would think at the very least that if the USRA wanted to move the program along by combining the racers, They would have the for sight to combine the racers in a round robin format while maintaining the pro/ am split ala the Nor Cal SCRA.

    George, Your post is dead on. You are one of the hobbies ambassadors who gets it.

    I am still going to race as I enjoy racing against the best, However my expectations of bringing home a little trinket to show for my efforts are quite possibly out the window.

    I am starting to think the statement "For the racers, By the racers" is nothing but another boat load of crap!
    Last edited by backintheslot; 08-09-2011 at 01:50 PM. Reason: misspell
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  7. #52
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    Well hell, As I read it, There is one amateur class left in the USRA....................GT12! Halalooya! It looks as if the rules changers overlooked this one.................NO?
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  8. #53
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    Does this also mean that the Pro's will have to pay a higher entry fee now to cover the handout motor cost? Maybe for 2013 we can make all of the production classes IROC style or similar to the Parma Challenge Cup and everyone just use the same cars, this would be a hell of a savings which is what everyone is looking for right? Racers wouldn't even have to spend money on a car either, just show up and race.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by backintheslot View Post
    Well hell, As I read it, There is one amateur class left in the USRA....................GT12! Halalooya! It looks as if the rules changers overlooked this one.................NO?
    The rule changers didn't over look it...it was never proposed.

    Maybe next year someone will propose GT-12 combines and goes to hand out motors???

    Hopefully this time in California there be more entries in Am GT-12 versus the last time when there was only 9 entries in the Am GT-12 class.
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsyth Racing View Post
    Does this also mean that the Pro's will have to pay a higher entry fee now to cover the handout motor cost? Maybe for 2013 we can make all of the production classes IROC style or similar to the Parma Challenge Cup and everyone just use the same cars, this would be a hell of a savings which is what everyone is looking for right? Racers wouldn't even have to spend money on a car either, just show up and race.
    Well yes the entry fee will be higher due to the hand out motors that only cost about 12 bucks ea retail. You can buy three hand out motors for the price of just one American Made 16-D arm.

    Hand outs are still cheaper than having a handful of guys building lots of motors for one race a year.

    If the IROC PCC thing worked so well...... why isn't still held or raced anywhere?
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  11. #56
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    So anyone who voted "for" the proposals is insane????
    Zippity

    "Rules are written by FEAR; and that Racers are motivated by the Fear that somebody may have something that gives others an Edge." - Rocky Russo



  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippity View Post
    So anyone who voted "for" the proposals is insane????
    Not insane, Just not using the brain!

    Combining the racers to move the program along OK.

    Proposing hand out motors which may be good for the host raceways bottom line OK.

    Eliminating the amateur class which more than likely will further hurt participation, ASININE!

    And since everything is always Hershmans fault anyway, along with his infinite knowledge of all things related to slot car racing, It would not surprise me if the rule change proposals were authored by him!
    Last edited by backintheslot; 08-09-2011 at 02:17 PM.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by backintheslot View Post
    Not insane, Just not using the brain!

    Combining the racers to move the program along OK.

    Proposing hand out motors which may be good for the host raceways bottom line OK.

    Eliminating the amateur class which more than likely will further hurt participation, ASININE!

    And since everything is always Hershmans fault anyway, along with his infinite knowledge of all things related to slot car racing, It would not surprise me if the rule change proposals were authored by him!
    Adding the Am split didn't increase participation either. Maybe the brain wasn't used back when they did that?

    Now the Pro guys will have to race against their "ringers" in the class.

    Sorry, I didn't author any of the five proposals voted on. I did submit 12 or 13 and NONE made it to a vote.
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  14. #59
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    Well it's that time again sadly...

    Blah, Blah, Blah!!!
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  15. #60
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    As requested by Milton, I have gone ahead and posted the details of the voting results on the USRA web site:

    http://www.usraslots.com/2011/08/10/...sults-summary/

    I also copied the voting details and posted in the USRA forum Div 2 Voting Results thread:

    http://www.slotcartalk.com/slotcarta...e-Vote-Results

    I do find it frustrating that there seems to be more discussion here after the voting is over... while the participation in the actual voting was disappointing. That is just my opinion as the vote counter and forum "mom".

    While there have been several good points made in this poll thread... I believe that it has been covered and rehashed sufficiently.

    That is my opinion as the forum host & moderator - and so I am going to close this thread.

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