New NATS format

[UNCLE FRED]

What if the best didn't show? Are you really alright with running a class at the Nats where only 6 or 8 people show up?

[tnttires]

Yes I get to race my 2 favorite classes C-12 & GP-27, see old friends and help others during their race. It is like a Class Reunion every year. Some of these people I have know 30+ years. I meet new friends every year like the Grinstead Family and many others.
It is also a learning experience I learn something every time I go. You get to see the attention to detail that the Europeans, Brazilians, Beuf, The Port Jeff Bunch, The Skidmarks and the BP guys have then you learn what it takes to go fast. Going fast is not all about $$, it is about preparation,car setup and driving skill too.

[UNCLE FRED]

Agreed. I raced Gp-27 & G-7 at Port Jeff for 15 yrs and participated in the Worlds and as many Nats as I could get to. You and I could easily race 27L or OMO.

[Fast Freddie]

Uncle FRED The Nats is only run once a year and it should showcase all the wing classes outlined in the USRA rule book. Sure some will receive less participation than others but that's just the way it is. Didn't all the classes offered this year at least have the minimum entries. Racing is what it's all about. The only problem I have is that I didn't get to run against the PROs in the GP12 class. I believe the rules should be changed to allow Amateurs to run against the PROs in any class where there is a split. Let it be the Amateurs choice and not manditory. If the split is removed then anyone who runs in the ceramic classes can only run in 27L and OMO. This way it would discourage high level PROs from over running the lower classes. The answer to your question is yes I would run the race if there were only 6 racers. Like I said before we're there to race, right? I agree 30 would be better but 6 would do if that's all that showed up.

[UNCLE FRED]

That's the point the Nats are important. Not much of a showcase if only 6 racers show up to contest a national class.

[GaryG]

The answer to your question is yes I would run the race if there were only 6 racers. Like I said before we're there to race, right? I agree 30 would be better but 6 would do if that's all that showed up.[/QUOTE]

This is where our opinions differ! Having only 6 racers in a class tells me that
it should be dropped from the NATS due to lack of interest. And how meaningful
in winning a NATS title against 5 other racers! In my opinion, if 16 racers don't
enter any class (except Pro Gr.7) two years in a row, it should be dropped from
the NATS format. I think Mr. Magnetec suggested something like that.

[Fast Freddie]

So what if only 6 showed up for GP7. Would it be worth crowning a National Champion. Of course it would. Unless you completely drop a certain class if the minimum (4) show up to the Nats the class should be run. If I had my druthers I would drop Spec15 and C12. Those are two classes that never should have been started. Then drop the splits in GP12 and INT15 and allow GP12 and INT15 racers to enter 27L. Then allow 27L and OMO racers to enter the INT15 race but with the stipulation that if they race INT15 they cannot enter the 27 (no split), GP7 warm-up, Semi-Pro, or GP7 Pro classes. This would provide the ceramic class racers with an avenue to cobalt racing if they so desire. It would also provide a ceramic class for the Limited class racers if they so desired. I would do this in an effort to keep highly experenced racers out of the ceramic classes. The Geezer race would remain unchanged. I see this format taking no more than 5 days.
Mon-GP12 and INT15
Tue-27L and 27
Wed-Meeting and Geezer race
Thu-OMO and GP7 warm up
Fri -Semi Pro and GP7 Pro
I used Mon-Fri but any combination of days could work. Unless there is a doubling of racers this could work. The biggest problem is starting the racing on time and sticking to a strict time schedule. Something like this.
Open raceway- 8am
Practice- 8am-9am (The first class of the day only)
Register-9am-9:30am (FIRM)
Concours-9:30am-9:45am (Qualifing could begin right after concours is completed)
Qualifing-10am-10:30am (First round)
Qualifing-11am-11:30am (Second round)
Racing begins at 12 Noon
At the end of the first class race (plus some time to clear and check the track) the second class will begin their 1 hour of practice and follow the same time constraints.
Only 2 classes raced a day should be a breeze to get them done by 10pm-11pm. I remember racing 4 classes in the Mid-Atlantic series on Sat and 3 on Sun. Sat sometimes did run into Sunday. Shouldn't happen with only 2 races a day. In the Mid-Atlantic we sometimes did have 25-30 racers in Saturday and Sunday classes, but we managed 7 classes in 2 days.

[weedracer]

As mentioned a few million posts ago, how is "dropping" classes going to increase anything?

I've always thought that the Am/Pro split in classes like GP 12, 15A, and Cobalt 12 was silly since those were always classes that led up some imaginary ladder toward the top of the heap or GP7. Pro 27 always made sense to me as it gave the Pros a chance to get some track time and more than one race while traveling.

I raced Semi-Pro for a few years and did OK I guess, but was glad for the separation as I'm sure some Pros were as well. At the time I felt that I was doing something expensive and difficult, but at least doing it in the company of peers. This made it seem possible to learn without the paranoia of getting under the wheels of those more accomplished and with more at stake.

I was never "afraid" to race against Pros, but remember feeling way out of my depth with Beuf on one side of me and GuGu on the other, and I'm sure many Semi-Pro drivers felt the same way.

Anyway, I think that Nats shouldn't be for the casual racer unless he understands that it's the Big Boy's game and the stakes are high. With that in mind, boiling it down into something that's convenient for everyone - regardless of their level of skill or dedication does a disservice to those with chops and time served.

So...that means that I'm not concerned about dwindling Nats attendance, right? Somewhat true. I am very concerned about the dwindling number of raceways and racers, but don't really see how making the Nats easily accessible to racers who probably won't go anyway is going to solve that.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that the core group of racers who travel to the Nats EVERY year regardless of anything else are perfectly content to be part of that small club, are glad to see each other and could live without lots of new guys taking them out in the dead man.

I also think that nobody will admit to feeling that way.

When there were tons of entries and it took a whole week of 24 hour days, nobody complained about the format. Strange isn't it?

[UNCLE FRED]

First off, Charlie it's good to hear from you, hope you're doing well. This whole thread started because of the lopsided attendance at the Nats. Some classes are all but vanishing and others, like 27 Light and OMO are thriving. I admit that dropping a class should be the last resort but certainly some changes need to be made. And to say that some hard "Core" racers are just fine with it is missing the point.

[weedracer]

Hey Fred...good to see you're still kicking around too.

I've been following the thread, and have seen the trend you mention as well. I also remember when other classes showed a spike in interest and that they had a similar intent. Spec 15 ads C12 to mention a couple.

They enticed new racers due to minimized cost and a more even playing field and were great ideas. Now you see the same thing with OMO and 27L.

Wing car racing on the Nats level is a ton of work so it stands to reason that classes that offer top speeds on a budget would take off. There are no newbies with "one motor" winning these classes though.

[GaryG]

As mentioned a few million posts ago, how is "dropping" classes going to increase anything?

This thread was not intended to be about how to increase the NATS participation.
It has more to do with responding to what is popular in Division 1 racing as
demonstrated by the number of entries in each class at the NATS. If we take our
heads out of the sand and recognize this reality, maybe then the USRA can take
a leadership roll in forming the future of wing car racing. The bigger impact will be
on local and regional racing which should enhance our national event.

[UNCLE FRED]

Has anyone noticed that the NEUSRA and the NorCal Usra have just posted race formats that have applied much of the thinking we have discussed here? NEUSRA is running a Amateur G12 and 15A as one motor with mandated gearing and dropped G27 altogether. NorCal is running Group F, G12,27L and OMO. Doug (Hardcore) Bauer is eliminating Am/Ex splits in all but G12 for the North East Nats. Seems like a move in the right direction to me.

[hesketh]

Fred, not to steal your thunder, LOL, but we have been running that type of schedule in the NEUSRA for a few years now. I am the proud inventor of OMG12 and OM15A, we have had good results with both classes. A number of regions are running to run OMG12 in a couple of variations. We have been running OMO for a couple of years and added 27 Lite last year. Nobody would ever show up to race G27 and Opens when we had it on the schedule but we get turnouts for OMO and 27L. A lot of our racers have dropped Pro G12 entirely and picked up 27L and OMO instead.

[UNCLE FRED]

And good inventions they are! I knew about the OMO12 but not 15A and dropping G27. I see that Doug is dropping the AM/EX split for 15A for the East Coast Nats. You and I raced for years at PJ that way.

[Big Mike1]

Fred, not to steal your thunder, LOL, but we have been running that type of schedule in the NEUSRA for a few years now. I am the proud inventor of OMG12 and OM15A, we have had good results with both classes. A number of regions are running to run OMG12 in a couple of variations. We have been running OMO for a couple of years and added 27 Lite last year. Nobody would ever show up to race G27 and Opens when we had it on the schedule but we get turnouts for OMO and 27L. A lot of our racers have dropped Pro G12 entirely and picked up 27L and OMO instead.

Looks great pk we have a omg12 at skidmarks and m&t and it works out well for the beginners not having to run with the big dogs and some (most) have moved into 27L too but what works at each region is different thats why there are so many classes at the nats not like 20yrs ago when you had 3 div.1 classes and 2 div.2 classes. What I saw this and last year was racers come and go when they were done racing and new ones come in after the classes they didnt race were over.