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Thread: a little help

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    denver colorado
    Posts
    8

    a little help

    hi everyone,
    I have been racing for a while now and seem to have hit a flat spot in my racing. I have built a new car for nascar 16d racing i am running the parma 16d motor and have 12:37 gears in it now but just seams to be right in the middle of the class. as far as lap times and speed. the tires i am running are the PSE big hub tuna tires size 790. This all rides on a champion chassis. i have worked on weight for over and under steering it stays in the slot very well but i can't break the 6.3 second or even lower on my track i race at. but there are other guys that seem to be able to pass me at any point on the track and they are running sub 6 sec on the track. it racing i do get that and other guys i am racing just don't give up their tricks.
    also new sealed motor in car i have ran 11;35 ,12;36,12;37, 12;38 in the car as well thanks for the look willing to try anything legal also just switched over to oillights

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Pine, AZ
    Posts
    649
    What kind of track are you racing on to start with.
    ParmaPSE
    3rd Eye Technology

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    denver colorado
    Posts
    8
    the track is like a king track big bank long back straight away and a donut hill climb

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    denver colorado
    Posts
    8
    most of the turns are flat other than the big bank turn

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    St. Catharines, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    265
    What is the track length Rob?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Chesapeake, Va.
    Posts
    804
    One thing many racers, including myself, do is select the wrong tire. The Tuna is a natural rubber tire more at home on flat tracks. My guess is your losing a lot of time with those soft tires especially on the straights and in the bank. Not knowing the track surface I would shift my tire choice to either a "Treated" natural rubber tire or a Soft to Medium Wonder Rubber tire and see how they work. They won't have as much grip as the Tunas. You may not need all that grip. With the gear ratios you have tried you should have seen a movement in performance in one direction or another that's why I suggest a tire change. I would also suggest trying a 13x39 ratio. I know it's the same 3.00:1 as the 12x36 but it stresses the motor less. The guy who won the 4.5 Scale Nats in 2011 used that ratio. Since your already using a .790 tire it should accommodate a 39 gear.

    What do you mean you just switched over to oilites what were you running? Do your rules allow for aluminum pans? The Champion is a heavy chassis in all steel compared to the C7 4.5. That doesn't mean it's not a good chassis but weight is speed.
    I've done so much with so little for so long it seems like I can do anything with nothing at all.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Great Valley,NY
    Posts
    1,227
    Are you running in a sealed class or can you work on the motors?
    Motors vary in speed, especially unbalanced 16D motors.
    Arms, setups, magnets, brushes, springs all affect the motor.

    The Parma Deathstar was the most inconsistent motor I ever used.
    Thankfully, most tracks have moved away from the Parma 16D motors and are running ProSlot or JK.
    These motors are more consistent than the old Parma motors but some run better than others.
    Sometimes you get lucky and get a fast one out of the bag.

    Guide spacing makes a big difference.
    Too high and the car will tilt.
    Too low, you won`t get good contact and the motor will seem slow.

    Unless it`s a Champion only class, the JK stamped steel chassis are lighter and faster on most tracks.

    Bodies make a huge difference too.
    Run a .007 body with a thin coat of paint and tape.
    Look at the fast cars and note how the body is mounted.

    The driver figure is dead weight that sits up high and raises the C.G.
    Trim the interior as small as you can to get it to pass tech and use the least tape possible to secure it.

    If your track has a digital scale handy, weigh your car and compare it to the faster competition.

    There are many variables.
    The guys who are the fastest are also the ones who put in the most time and effort building and testing.
    Last edited by La Cucaracha; 10-29-2014 at 06:54 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Denton, Texas
    Posts
    198
    Any real "tricks" are few and far between and probably only gain you a few hundredths of a second; of course, when competing at the top of the pile, those few hundredths could make a difference. More than likely, the majority of your deficit lies in a couple of areas... car preparation and driving skill. Don't take that personally. For 98% of us, myself included, that is what separates us from the consistent winners. Car preparation is simplistic in concept. Keep everything straight, flat and square. Sounds easy but practical application takes time. But what ELSE ya gonna do? Take care of all the little details. Make sure you aren't giving away some handling by running a car with too much more clearance than your rules allow; allow for a little extra clearance so there is no question of legality, but keep it as low as possible within the rules... lower CoG = better handling. Replace worn out bushings and axles; slop induced by worn out bushings and axles will reduce power transfer efficiency. Check your guide flag. Make sure it isn't in a bind but isn't sloppy loose either. Make sure it is flat when viewed from in front. Make sure it does not angle downward towards the front when viewed from the side; a slight upward angle is acceptable. Make sure your tires are TRUE/ROUND. If you are going to be racing for years and years, get a tire truer and make sure your tires are true before every race. Make sure you have a good gear mesh. You should have just the tiniest bit of play in the gears; slowly "fiddle" with the gears as you work your way all 'round the spur/crown gear, looking/feeling for tight spots. It's been my experience that most gears are not PERFECTLY round, having a slight high spot here or there. You have to make sure those high spots aren't causing a bind in the mesh which will rob you of hp and cause your motor to run hotter than necessary. Make sure you have a touch of slop in your rear axle; you don't want it binding up. Finding these tolerances between what's too loose or in a bind takes time and experience. See if one of the consistent winners will let you feel the gear mesh on his car, see what slop he has in the rear axle. See if you can do this for several of the fastest guys, so you can mentally compare these aspects between their cars. Lastly, there's your driving. To see if this is a factor, have one or more of the fastest guys drive YOUR car and see what times they do with it. This should give you an idea how close your driving skill is to theirs. It takes time to assimilate all of this into your regular routine; but, if you keep doing it over and over, you eventually don't even have to think about it... ya just do it. Good luck!
    Let me know if you want to know my real name... it's not "Tex". LOL

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    1,937
    Rob, where in the Denver area do you race? I worked in Littleton back in 1995-96, but don't recall seeing any raceways in the area then.
    I like long walks, especially when they're taken by people who annoy me.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    denver colorado
    Posts
    8
    thanks guys i am at the track 2 to 3 times a week racing other classes but this class has given me the most problems but due to the parma 16d motor problem we have been switching motors out to jk or proslot motors i have also moved over to using alpa piranha race tires .790's but the surface is grey painted with glue sprayed on i will get the track size for you and keep up the great work guys thank you

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Madera, CA
    Posts
    52
    Hi racerrob,
    Reading this last part of your help request JUST PISSES ME OFF...If you have been doing this for some time and are having some success, you should not be afraid to help someone...I've seen this far too much in my 50+ years in slot car world...
    Newbee's get tired of getting their asses handed to them week after week and soon their slot box gets put into the closet, garage, storage area or whatever....But bottom line is they stop going to the raceway, and then the raceway with the few "HOT ****S" closes and everyone loses...
    I'll make another post at the end after I read everyone's replies...
    Crash
    If you're serious about Slotcars get Cars By Crash

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Madera, CA
    Posts
    52
    Fast Freddie has some things here...I never use sticky tires with our NASCAR16D'S. It slows them up on the chutes big time...My tire of choice is Kelly Golds...But have not been able to get them for over a year now and I'm almost out, so much more testing is needed now...but a treated tire seems like the next step as you need to unhook the car so it slides a bit...they have no nose pressure and it's too easy to drive the nose out of the slot with sticky "TUNA" tires..In order to be of much more help I need to know the rules...But if you are running a 4" Turbo Flex with .790 tires it's WAAAAAY too tall at the rear, you could drive a semi underneath it...I assume there is a 1/16th clearance rule????Again not knowing your rules it's difficult to tell you what to do, but in general most groups measure clearance at the rear of the car, under the rear axle and that is it....Most of us in NCAL us 12T 72P spur gears on our 16D's, but never with .790 tires, we use a tire that large only on our 41/2" class with is with Truck bodies...Next question is what body do you use, in my testing of just about every one made, the JK Toyota is the body of choice, with the Parma COT and the JK COT ok in some instances...The Toyota seems to have the most grip of all, but remember we want them to slide a bit so the nose does not lift out mid corner off...
    Now on to the next things to read...
    Crash
    If you're serious about Slotcars get Cars By Crash

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Madera, CA
    Posts
    52
    Hi Mike,
    You make some good points as well...Again without knowing his rules we are kind of just spinning our wheels..Are paper interiors legal...they save a lot of weight and when folded meet the rules of 3 dimensional, yeah right, but they are legal in most series around the country...
    On to the next
    Crash
    If you're serious about Slotcars get Cars By Crash

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Madera, CA
    Posts
    52
    Hi Richard,
    You have numerous good points here as well...However from rereading the original post, it seems he's way slow, he barely does 6.3's while the "HOT ****S", SORRY PAUL I HAVE TO CALL IT LIKE IT IS...are probably half a second faster per lap...at least 3 tenths and probably more...and from his use of .790 tires on Turbo the thing must have more than 1/8th inch clearance....which makes the thing handle like crap...it also bogs the motor and just generally makes the thing a road block looking for a place to crash....Sorry, but that's the reality of it...There are so many little details and they all add up, and will make a huge improvement in lap times and ability to keep it in the slot...
    Looks like I'm almost at the end, and Rob still has not given us any rules to go by to help him...SO PLEASE ROB GIVE ME THE RULES SO I CAN HELP...
    I'm going to give you a ton of little things at the end of your last post...
    crash
    If you're serious about Slotcars get Cars By Crash

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Madera, CA
    Posts
    52
    Ok Rob, I'm here to help, but I need to know what your rules are...I've made the assumption that you are running a 4" Turbo Flex, if this is true, you have WAAAAAY too much clearance at the rear...Makes the car handle terrible...If you want to be competative you should just clear the tech tool, what ever size...USUALLY .063...At the front you should, damn been along time since I've looked at a Turbo, but I don't think a cut down guide is needed because the bend on the Turbo is large enough...Where on the JK25 center's I use I have to sand the bottom of the guide and remove any moulded in spacer on top of the guide that raise the front of the chassis...Remember this term, "if you ain't dragin, you are laggin"...I set my cars up at .020 clearance of the ears with motor in and new braid on the car....after a race there is rubber on the bottom of the car about 1/4 of the way back from the front...The chassis needs to be as low as it can without burning the braid, if it burns the braid in testing then raise it a thin S7 teflon washer or maybe a Koford brass one, that's all I use, combination of both...The pan should hang down lower that the chassis on banked tracks...I set my pan height at around .040 with .063 clearance under the car...The one piece pans sometimes need to be rebent there where it rests on the chassis and the cotter pin goes through it...if it hangs down lower than .040 then space it up with mylar packaging tape to bring it up to where you want it...Then the body, use as thin as possible, you want the body to flex on the chassis...I use floater front pin tube and solid at the rear...>.047 od SS tubing held in with Sonic .050 retainers, can't remember the part number...Do not mount the body as far back as you can on the chassis...For me that unbalances the car...Mine are from 1/8th to 1/4 inch in front of the front of the guide depending on the track...Next thing, make sure there is no body material hanging down below the pan on either side and make sure you have enough clearance at the front...I use .078 rod crazy glued to my body block...Pin the rear first then with tires, motor, new braid pin the front ...Also make sure the side at the front have the same clearance as well...as soon as the car starts moving the air will push the body down, my bodies always have some rubber on the front from rubbing on the track at speed...There are a few more things I could add but I'm afraid I've already given you an overload of info...
    If you want to hear more contact me directly at fbhood@comcast.net As Mother says, I hardly ever make posts here...Now my neck hurts and it's time for my pain pills...
    Crash
    As you can see I don't know how this thing works as my posts did not go where I thought they would...
    KEEP EM IN THE SLOT
    If you're serious about Slotcars get Cars By Crash

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