.

.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 50

Thread: Price fixing.

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    249
    I'm with you both. $25 a pair of tires is crazy and then some more of those 8 guys left racing will quit when they run out of money. How much would a tire on a .600 or .650 hub that isn't drilled and waffled cost anyway? Let's say you buy 10 pairs of tires @ $25 each, that's $250. If the tires were $15 each you would either spend $150 or you could buy 6 more tires. How many more people would race if tires were less expensive? Would it help pickup local programs? Look at the popularity of Group F racing in some places where there is a $15 limit on tires.

    Most successful racing organizations have strong, visionary leadership at the top. CART (remember them) was run by the teams and they were their own worst enemy. Bill Sr and Bill Jr did amazing things with NASCAR. OTOH, an idiot at the top (Tony George for example) can kill an org too. The jury is out on whether the France's genius has skipped a generation.

    There needs to be more racers and it has to start at the local level. It's hard to get people to race wings when the tire bill for 1 class of racing for the day is $50 minimum for Group 12 and it goes up from there.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    301
    It all stems from restrictions, if you try and have manufacturers produce a group 12 chassis leaving only meat on the bone for the raceway, the steel supplier and the owner of the EDM cutting them where do you think that money is going to be made up? Price restrictions just drive the cost of the unrestricted priced parts up.

    Now say a manufacturer buys a wire EDM that's a $50,000-$500,000 investment, USRA wants to make sure that the price does not allow them to ever turn a profit off the investment. The pricing setup is old and does not apply to today's world. For the hobby to grow the market needs to be more open, if you make it so a small guy can manufacture a chassis and turn a profit then the market has more competition that will generate price wars and quality wars between manufacturers that will in turn benefit the consumer.

    When a computer could only run on Windows do you remember the price of Windows? Once competition came into the picture with Mac the price came down instantly.

    A raceway owner, manufacturer or a pro racer cannot be the head of an orginization if you would like it to flourish, you need someone with a unbiased interest that would be willing to make the decisions. Is it realistic to find someone to take on this role for the USRA? It is unlikely, if possible though the USRA would take a big step in the right direction.

    Raceways yes need to make money to keep the doors open but perhaps a short discount on restricted priced pieces to allow the manufacturer to also flourish and sponsor major races with financial donations. Everyone keeps talking about the lack of racers, what about the lack of manufacturers? Or new manufacturers? The business even with what people call high and outrageous prices is not attracting anyone new to make products. So maybe the pricing is not as outrageous as we believe? If it is so profitable as everyone believes why is not everyone producing a group 12 chassis?

    If armatures are so highly priced and profitable why in wing car racing has it essentially become a monopoly? It has become a monopoly because no one else can afford to jump into the mix. The pricing has ultimately hurt everyone but the answer everyone keeps coming up with is restrict more pricing. That is how communism works everyone can earn the same, sell for the same no freedom in the market. Pretty sure in North America we are not under communist rule, capatalism works in all other markets. Yet in slotcars we want to get away from capatalism,

    That might of been a little on the ramble side but the key points are noted, the market needs to encourage competition not make the market unattractive for new manufacturers and competition.
    JAQUE MEOPH RACING

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    249
    Based on my past experiences in several forms of racing (slots, RC, Karts, & cars) I'm not sure typical supply and demand economics apply. Demand is always going to be for the fastest parts and pieces and, once that producer is identified, he can pretty much charge what ever he wants while the 2nd and 3rd tier producers won't be able to sell anything. We used to see this in karting all the time. People would get in and then they'd either spend the money to get fast equipment or drop out. Eventually, the racing budget couldn't be funded anymore, so they quit. From what I've seen over the years, at times racers tend to be their own worst enemies.

    My thoughts are Group racing is spec racing. Spec racing is designed to keep the costs down, especially at the entry level. I think the question we needs to ask ourselves, is the cost too high in the entry level classes, i.e. G12, etc.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Long Island,N.Y.
    Posts
    928
    Problem is many are competing with guys who spend little or nothing on many products. Or get them at big discounts. Everyone knows who these guys are. So they see they can't compete on that level and either drop out or race some other class. The companies that hand out these goodie bags think they are just sponsoring their "Team" racers. Very short sighted. Since most of the racers still competing are the "inside guys". So who is left to actually buy their products? We call this stepping on one owns d#%k. It happened in the 60s and it is happening now. History always seems to repeat itself.

    For some more thoughts on the subject see Doug's(PJR) thread "The Back Door".
    http://www.slotcartalk.com/slotcarta...-The-Back-Door

    And feel free to comment. I think I saw the body twitch. It ain't dead yet. Kick it again.
    Last edited by Sam pan; 03-31-2015 at 06:41 AM.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    The Alamo City
    Posts
    505
    Cost is the issue, yes, but it's the cost of racing less and less reliable parts, not the cost of a particular part.
    The race format discriminates against the racer who can't afford to rebuild the car 8 times during the race.

    There was a time we ran 4 ten minute heats in Opens with 3 minute breaks...reliability was paramount.
    When we went to 8 heats, the time between heats stayed the same but there were 24 minutes to fix stuff instead of 12...so fixing faster but less reliable equipment became even easier.
    Now there's even more time between heats...supposedly so the non-team racer has a fair chance against the teams and how has that worked out?

    Any "fix" that doesn't address the real problem, the race format that allows all this expensive unreliable stuff to win races, is just a waste of time.
    Last edited by JimHT; 03-31-2015 at 11:47 AM. Reason: speeeling
    "I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." -- Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Land of Excitement "Bensenville"
    Posts
    1,326
    The problem with TEAM racers now is that it is a secrete it needs to be know. Team racers do R&D and promote the product that they run. If a company is just giving people a deal and not requiring the person to promote or help make the product better then the company is not doing any good for the industry. Slots needs to take a view from RC and how they do there sponsoring. People need to stop being afraid of Team Racers most of they time they put the $'s in and the time to get fast so the company's notice.

    I really think that this topic has gotten off track.
    Michael Mazur
    Ruzam Racing
    Team ProSlot

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Long Island,N.Y.
    Posts
    928
    "Team Racers put the $'s in and the time to get fast so the company's notice."

    Problem is it ain't their money. So the guys who race against them won't or can't spend $150 just on tires for one race. Or change motors multiple times just to finish. Limiting the cost of a chassis or motor set-up does very little to attract more racers. Or at least ones that buy their own equipment.

    Jim is right. The format has to change so that cars can be built to last an entire race. Less time between heats,not more. Tire and motor changes under power on only. The cars and equipment will develop as will the rules. Only then will there be bids on the 2016 Nats.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Land of Excitement "Bensenville"
    Posts
    1,326
    Dont think just wing all the time. and I am saying before they where Team Racers they had to spend the money to compete.
    Michael Mazur
    Ruzam Racing
    Team ProSlot

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Sao Paulo-Brazil
    Posts
    155
    In resume maybe this will work (here in Brazil most of the scale classes/series and nats runs like it):

    Spray Glue
    Tires sold by raceway (limit per main / semi etc) - here body is also the same for everybody in the scale series, only for the Nats you can choose for any..
    2 motors allowed with changes under power

    I think we are off topic! The price fixing arent working to help the hobby get cheaper, we need a deep change on rules...

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,385
    Quote Originally Posted by JimHT View Post
    Cost is the issue, yes, but it's the cost of racing less and less reliable parts, not the cost of a particular part.
    The race format discriminates against the racer who can't afford to rebuild the car 8 times during the race.

    There was a time we ran 4 ten minute heats in Opens with 3 minute breaks...reliability was paramount.
    When we went to 8 heats, the time between heats stayed the same but there were 24 minutes to fix stuff instead of 12...so fixing faster but less reliable equipment became even easier.
    Now there's evem more time between heats...supposedly so the non-team racer has a fair chance against the teams and how has that worked out?

    Any "fix" that doesn't address the real problem, the race format that allows all this expensive unreliable stuff to win races, is just a waste of time.
    Jim,
    Great post.

    I suggested a G7 "tank" chassis about 5 years ago.

    Steel with wide rails that could survive a bad crash.

    It probably would require small hub/cheap tires to hook up and "only" run 1.9's or 2.0's on a Gerding.

    It was like I was speaking Martian. LOL

    Of minor note, your intermission times are actually 21 and 9 minutes, total.
    "Get Yourself Retrofied"
    Chicagoland Raceway
    17B West Ogden Ave.
    Westmont,Il. 60559
    Phone-708-203-8003
    mikeswiss86@hotmail.com

    Check out Chicagoland Raceway on facebook.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Retired National USRA Director
    Posts
    1,985
    Quote Originally Posted by swiss View Post
    Jim,


    Of minor note, your intermission times are actually 21 and 9 minutes, total.
    Of minor correction and being Gr 7 was mentioned...... it actually 7 lanes changes per main at 5 minutes each for a grand total of 35 minutes in Gr 7 racing.

    Gr 27 and 27 lite and OMO is 28 minutes per main.... 7 lane changes at 4 minutes each for a total of 28 minutes

    Int 15, C-12, Box 12, etc........ 21 minutes per main.... 7 lane changes at 3 minutes each for a total of 21 minutes.

    More on the original topic ( Price Fixing ) of this thread later..... I promise and you have been warned LOL
    "When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow"

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    301
    Wing car racing and slot car racing in North America is suffering, in Europe the attendance for races is through the roof! In Europe the rules are more open and inviting, a rule like 72 grams minimum for a car do not even get considered. Having a minimum weight does not level the playing field it just puts a heavier work load on the motor.

    Now I know someone will say, without a weight restriction guys will run all kinds of trick light weight stuff, please someone share with me a trick light weight component that would be even realistic to run in group 12. Hollow axle? Please run this I would love to race against someone using one, magnet wire? Sure by all means, it's so lightweight and good that in no other class does anyone even consider using it, watch gears from a Rolex? Another great idea. The issue is people are not being educated and it's the fear of the unknown that is scaring them away from change.

    Group 12 chassis vs 27 lite chassis

    Material: group 12 has more
    Cutting: more expensive and longer wire path
    Price: 2/3rds

    So the more expensive car to produce we are asked to sell at a lower price and maintain the discount.

    USRA wants new racers, raceways want new racers, racers want new racers, manufacturers want new racers, yet on a group 12 chassis and motor designed to attract new racers the only one giving up a significant portion of their end is the Manufacturer to get people into the class. Then everyone turns around and says the manufacturer is charging to much, as a manufacturer we have very similar if not greater investments then a raceway. Now we both need each other to ensure we have customers to each earn a living from, but would it not make sense for the USRA to restructure the ruling to allow a manufacture to thrive?

    In 10 years who will produce slot car parts? The average age of current manufacturers is about 60 years old, when they retire who is going to provide us racers with products? Our short sighteded approach to bigger issues then pricing has killed the back end of our hobby. So for the "old guard" to want to stick by the current situation it's understandable as only one manufacturer is thriving in wing car racing while the rest have closed up shop. So if I was 10 years from retirement and riding the monopolized gravy train by all means I'm going to just act like everything is good.

    Something needs to happen or unfortunately we will not be racing into the future, what that something is we need to really look into.

    As for tires, I was going to manufacture a tire for commercial sale. It's what I have been using for the last 6 months and has been very popular with some close friends. I wanted to release it at a greatly reduced price to help the cost for the racers and then offer a shorter discount to raceways to ensure everyone can flourish and benefit. I've been asked for large discounts though that for me are not fair.

    What's better earning 25 percent of 80 percent of tire sales at a big race or 50 percent of 10 percent of tire sales?

    Or even a more simple approach, your company needs to make $100,000 this year and your boss puts you in charge of the project. Do you choose which of the following

    A) 10 customers for $10,000 each
    B) 10000 customers for $10 each

    10 customers talk to 10 people each your total reach is 100 people
    10000 customers talk to 10 people each your total reach is 100,000 people

    Still made the same amount of money but your impact was much greater with option B, so the USRA, raceways and manufacturers got together and opened the market up allowing more competition and more options to the end consumers we will see growth. No one likes to be told what to do, from saying you must sell at the price at this discount or telling a racer they must use this part or the only legal option is this product. People want variety and the freedom to decide for themselves what they will run.

    USRA needs to step up make some changes and encourage this or just continue to watch attendance drop.
    JAQUE MEOPH RACING

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,385
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hershman View Post
    Of minor correction and being Gr 7 was mentioned...... it actually 7 lanes changes per main at 5 minutes each for a grand total of 35 minutes in Gr 7 racing.

    Gr 27 and 27 lite and OMO is 28 minutes per main.... 7 lane changes at 4 minutes each for a total of 28 minutes

    Int 15, C-12, Box 12, etc........ 21 minutes per main.... 7 lane changes at 3 minutes each for a total of 21 minutes.

    More on the original topic ( Price Fixing ) of this thread later..... I promise and you have been warned LOL
    Of minor correction?

    Nothing to correct.

    I was clearly referring to the times Jim quoted, back when G7 breaks were 3 minutes.

    Talk about an overly detailed post for zero purpose.
    "Get Yourself Retrofied"
    Chicagoland Raceway
    17B West Ogden Ave.
    Westmont,Il. 60559
    Phone-708-203-8003
    mikeswiss86@hotmail.com

    Check out Chicagoland Raceway on facebook.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    The Alamo City
    Posts
    505
    After reading more comments...

    The time between heats of the race, right...I was wrong, unless one counts demolition in practice, but never mind...as an aside, you mean when I raced mains with 4 10 minute heats I actually only had 9 minutes to fix a car during the race? I must have been good once.

    Regarding the actual thread topic: prices set by the manufacturer should reflect standard discounts to the distributors & Raceways as long as the manufacturer is dealing with the "normal" supply chain. Those that wish to sell "direct", shouldn't pretend they're competing fairly with those who don't .
    If the product actually gets sold cheaper than MSRP by the Raceway, it's an indicator that it isn't worth as much as the manufacturer thinks it is, but that should be the Raceways choice, not the manufacturer.
    If the manufacturer short discounts it usually means he thinks he's overpriced in the competitive market, that's his problem.
    Examples of irritating short discounts by manufacturers abound, JK for instance, sells bodies on RTR cars & the cars are full discount...but the same fancy body by itself is short discount...WTF?

    Now, the complication of the USRA horning in with price restrictions that the manufacturers consider unfair/unrealistic...that has more to do with manufacturers that don't make enough of something to get the price low (economies of scale, eh?).
    If it turns out that some manufacturer doesn't have the volume to make a profit at the USRA price, so what?
    That's what the restricted price is about. If one can't compete, tough.
    It's not about giving everyone a share of the pie; it's about price restriction to help the customer & having manufacturers that make enough of the product to make a profit at that price.
    If the USRA winds up with just one component available to compete in a restricted class, what's wrong with that?
    More variety costs more money; the point is to restrict the variety to keep the class cheaper.
    "I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." -- Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Cleveland, TN
    Posts
    707
    Quote Originally Posted by mazur50 View Post
    Well said Roman,

    If you didn't have price limits this is what would happen.. Look at your average Open 12 classes. You have your average gt12 chassis that is at the USRA $69.04, then you have a Horky open 12 chassis $300. Most not all but most cases the Horky or Open12 chassis will out perform the USRA restricted version. So most slot racer that has the addiction to the hobby and speed will pay the Open12 price. Then you have a problem of people dropping off because they can't play the money game. Here is another example. People believe that the Cahoza c-cans are the best. So people will pay the higher price because they want to go fast. Then you have people drop off because they feel they can’t compete. Then you have the problem where the USRA didn’t enforce the rule and let them by. Now when they ban them in 2015 you are going to have a lot of racers leave usra racing and go somewhere where they are aloud to further fragment the hobby.

    Does the USRA need to make changes yes. But it is not easy, as a former tech director I know first hand how hard it is to fix the problem we are in. I think first thing that needs to happen is the tracks need to embrace the USRA rule set to get more people racing. If raceways keep making these one off classes it further fragments the hobby. The open needs to be consolidated to its core classes “It needs a rest”

    Here is an example.
    A group of racers got mad at the USRA and formed ISRA-USA and AMSRA. I think AMSRA is gone now but the ISRA-USA is still doing well “well as any scale racing”. For many years this split caused a drop in USRA turn out as less racers traveled to the Nat’s If these racers just stayed and played the game we would have what we have now a more hybrid USRA/ISRA type racing.

    If you think of this as a manufacture I can see the point of Price fixing. It is hard to meet the pricing. But as a manufacture your average Open12 chassis does not cost more to cut then your average GT12 chassis. So who is the one doing the price fixing as the one that cost no more money to make but just cost better because it is a better design.

    If we have more people racing USRA classes that means more chassis sales and more chassis sales means your cost to manufacture goes down. Just thing that if we had all the people that are racing retro, racing c-cans cars. The manufactures would be doing even better and I am sure we would get a lot more racing.

    So what I ask is that more raceways embrace the USRA rule set. Racers vote for what is best for the hobby not best to make them faster. If you work at it you can get most anything to work very well you just need to be creative.

    If you did have the USRA Maximum Retail Price, prices would go up and we will lose all racers. You have to look at it from both sides as a racer and as a manufacture, and as a person with a lot of money and a person with very little money.

    The USRA is not one race a year. It is a organization that keeps the hobby in check and could be many more races like regionals and divisional and local races following one rule set. Not what ever any feels like is fun for today. You always have to keep the new guy in Mind.

    Remember always keep the new guy in mind.

    My rant is over thanks for listening.

    -Mike
    Well said Mike.

    Personally I don't understand not promoting a universal set of rules. While I think the USRA needs some adjusting it has its good points and has been around forever. The more track participation and promotion the stronger it can get. When my facility finally gets done we will promote the USRA in both wing and scale. In 1:1 racing the SCCRA does a pretty good job of having National and Regional classes. The same can be done with slot cars. In D2 currently, Gp10, LMP and am gt12 would work well regionally.

    The other think that surprises me is wanting to encourage people to spend LESS money? I do realize that unchecked spending can ruin any form of racing but do we have to swing all the way to the other side? Lets make sure we have a place for those who do have unlimited(or very high) budgets to spend their money on THIS hobby while providing an affordable option for those that don't. Its OK to have both, it doesnt have to be one or the other.
    Alan Ingram

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •