Question about ISRA 1/24 Production class

[hesketh]

Just curious really, but whats the history on how US racing settled on B-Production when World ISRA racing uses what I guess would be called A-Production, the G12 motor instead of the Wasp motor? It's probably common knowledge among scale racers, but it's outside my security clearance.

[wjdougherty]

Lou Pirro really should answer that one. There is a US ISRA class called A Prod that uses a 12 motor. We raced it in the late 90s- early 2000s in CASRA and AMCA in New England at races like the ROC in Manchester. However, with the popularity of GT12 taking off, no one saw any benefit to racing Flexi 12s any more. B Prod was also more closely aligned with the USRA GT1/LMP and GTP classes that used Contenders and SW motors. It was a smart move...

[hesketh]

Thanks! Makes sense.

[smichslot]

Makes sense??

Well, ISRA is racing production because they want a race that is based on fairly standard parts. Only a few chassis' are allowed, and the motors, wheels and bodies are hand-outs, which is levelling thet playing field a lot.
Add to that that a flexi chassis (most are using X25's) can be a handfull with a X-12-motor and a no-down-force body, and you have a class that is challenging, and everything can happen.

It's easy to spec a class that goes faster for the same money, but that is not the intent.

Steen

[hesketh]

It wasn't a value judgement, just an acknowledgement that I understood Bill's explanation. Not questioning 1/24 Production, which I understand also, my question was about how we evolved differently over here, thats all.

[stoneman]

Aerodynamics and air control became more popular as slotcars in america evolved...in scale division the gtp body was born and it got to the point where running gtp was a good handling and easy body style to driving...not looking like any type of real car but drove easy and fast... That was the start....

[Greg N]

I understand that the original question has been answered, but there's an interesting other side to this:

With the advent of the fast JK chassis and the really nice current B-prod bodies, the B-prods are now very nearly as fast as GT-12s and Open-12s. The two 12 classes both lap faster, but the lap totals for the 3 classes are usually very similar. ISRA Team Production cars (essentially the same thing as the old A-production cars) are MUCH harder to drive. In terms of driving, they are almost as hard as 1/32 F1s. I've felt for a while that we would do better in the US dropping either B-Prod or GT-12/O-12 and running the ISRA Team cars instead, simply because they are so much harder to drive. We'd learn to be better drivers.

On a different level, the usual US ISRA procession of B-Prod, O-12, 1/24 ES makes no sense to me. The cars are so similar to drive. I understand that most US ISRAlites love all 3 classes, and I know that I won't convince you, but Team Prod, 1/32 ES, 1/32 F1, and 1/24 ES is really a great combination.

Lastly, Team Prod and the 3 cobalt ES classes are (for me) cheaper to race than the d and c-can stuff. I've spent so much money over the years trying to buy fast group 10, contender, wasp, and 12 motors. Team Prods are overpowered with almost any 12 motor. I have one 1/32 F1 motor, and it gets reconditioned once a year, and lasts at least 5 years. I have two 1/32 ES motors, same ones for years, new arm every 2 years. I have 2 1/24 ES race motors and a practice motor, new arm every 2 years, too. I buy 1 chassis total annually for all 4 classes combined. The only downside is that you need an excellent controller, but many of you already have one. I'm not fast, but it's not because my equipment is slow, more because of me being old and slow.

Greg

[wjdougherty]

Greg,

Couldn't agree more on the cobalt classes, unless you run for the Nat'l Championship. And Yes, C/D can classes are the hardest to chase. Instead of adding a new Prod class, just rebody B Prod with the ISRA required Prod body. That would slow that class down. But I do like the progression of classes. It allowed me to bring my trigger finger along more gradually and build up to the ultimate 24 Euro experience. I really miss Lou; he really knew how to make all this work...

[wbugenis]

Yes, we all miss Lou.
I remember when he decided to make the change from A-prod to open 12. It was a carefully considered and well reasoned decision,as were all the rules decisions
he made. There were always some considerations the ordinay racer like myself did not see. Unfortunatly for this thread, I could never get into the weeds of rulemaking to remember those reasons!
I usually see him every couple of months. I will ask next visit.

[GT1]

I agree with Greg
The initial expense of running Euro cars is pretty high but in the long run I think they are cheaper to run than C Can stuff and even a serious Retro effort. If you take care of your stuff they seem to run forever. I am running Spec 12 @ the D1 Nats this Saturday. After that I will sell of the chassis and bodies and use the motors to build an A Prod car for giggles. Back in my Karting days the so called "stock" classes were more expensive in the long run than all out Open Class racing because you had to do what we do in Slots, go through a pile of parts to find the right combo. With Opens, just fill er up with Alky and let her rip!

[La Cucaracha]

I hate Stock Car Bodies on Slot Cars, which is essentially what A-Production is.
I only started racing ISRA 2 years ago, but I like the way the B-Production cars look and drive.

I ran old Box 12 setups redone by MicByrd with new style ProSlot arms and they were very competitive and reliable.
I`m happy with things the way they are now.

[Wallbasher]

Dito what Greg said. I could never say it better.
Now, why don't we all just agree, and DO IT !

[La Cucaracha]

If I could change anything, I would like to run open cockpit bodies like the Audi R10 in B-Production.

I ran Group 10 with GTP bodies a couple weeks ago and I really like how easy they are to drive.
Probably because I like Wing Cars, I guess I`m not much of a scale racer but I have fun.

[flyin binky]

as far as 12 motors in flexi chassis. I raced at fantasy raceways in Rochester, ny. back in the late 80's early 90's, we used to run at camel gt class which was a flexi 1 with 12 motor, mainly because that was all that was around. and the main body was a Nissan scale body by parma. they were fast, but you had to drive the cars. seems today no one has to drive the car, and put a body on it that makes the driving skills not that important anymore. wish racing was like that now, it was a lot more fun. plus we would get at least 20 people weekly for that. just my 2 cents

brian mosher

[Greg N]

Mike's opinion is probably the clear majority among flat track racers, and I respect that.

I'm sure that Bill is correct on the history, but the one thing that's changed in a huge way is that B-production got speeded up a ton with the introduction of the fast JK chassis, and the distance between B-Prod and O-12 has narrowed hugely. Changing to the Team Production cars would widen it up again (and make us all better drivers).

I think the reason to keep it with 12s is that the cars are so overpowered that all of the motor wars evaporate and the price goes way down.

Thanks for listening!

Greg