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Thread: PS4002FK experiences

  1. #211
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    477
    Mags are too strong. Motor is bound.

    Zap and they loose enough strength to nearly eliminate the push stop crap.

    Also the comm is too small for full size brushes.

  2. #212
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Great Valley,NY
    Posts
    1,227
    We run these motors at Fantasy Raceways on 13.6 volts and nobody ever has push start issues.

    I run full size brushes and have never had this problem.

    Geared 2.80/1 with .740-.750 tires in flexi chassis.

  3. #213
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,398
    So what?

    That doesn't help the ton of guys who have had problems?
    "Get Yourself Retrofied"
    Chicagoland Raceway
    17B West Ogden Ave.
    Westmont,Il. 60559
    Phone-708-203-8003
    [email protected]

    Check out Chicagoland Raceway on facebook.

  4. #214
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Canton
    Posts
    205
    At Downriver Speedway our experience is they all seem to go through a period where they need a push. Some "periods" last longer than others. We are around 13.6 volts. I have bought 9 of these motors. 2 were duds. One I screwed up. The best one threw a wind in its 6th race. I have one that ran 286 laps in 24 minutes in our flexi GT class. Ran the brushes down to where I thought they were so short they were going to bottom the springs out on the brush hoods. Replaced them with an unknown brand of leftover something and it still runs strong. This particular motor has 27 24 minute races on it and a 3 hour enduro. it has never been out of the chassis it is soldered in to. You could not have more fun for the buck than I have had with this car and motor.
    "Ever onward."

    Nelson Swanberg

  5. #215
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Chesapeake, Va.
    Posts
    809
    The brush hoods on these motors are usually not aligned. I ran one of these motors in the Gaithersburg 1100 and left it totally stock using the stock brushes and springs. I geared it 12x42@72P using .750 tire dia. No problems at all and this is in a C7 Indy car chassis. I did pay particular attention to the brush alignment using the old fashion method of new brush wear to determine correct alignment. For the price these motors are great little runners. I only have 6 but had to retire one due to a loose EB bushing and magnet misalignment. I recently finished a mild blueprint/rebuild on that motor and it runs fine. Too bad blueprinting has fallen out of favor. These little motors can really come to life when everything is correct.
    I've done so much with so little for so long it seems like I can do anything with nothing at all.

  6. #216
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,398
    Quote Originally Posted by La Cucaracha View Post
    We run these motors at Fantasy Raceways on 13.6 volts and nobody ever has push start issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by nswanberg View Post
    At Downriver Speedway our experience is they all seem to go through a period where they need a push. Some "periods" last longer than others. We are around 13.6 volts.
    Nelson, hence my "so what" comment to Mike F.

    2 tracks, both 13.6 V, one has a problem, and one doesn't.

    The problem is I'm 99.99% sure the amperage and wiring is different.

    Regardless, no raceway is going to totally rewire and repower their track, so a $13.95 motor can be less aggravating to use, when every other motor doesn't need a pushstart.

    So the solution is to fix the motor, not the track.
    "Get Yourself Retrofied"
    Chicagoland Raceway
    17B West Ogden Ave.
    Westmont,Il. 60559
    Phone-708-203-8003
    [email protected]

    Check out Chicagoland Raceway on facebook.

  7. #217
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    119
    So the solution is to fix the motor, not the track.
    A few gentle thoughts here:

    I am not aware of us *ever* having a starting problem at Mark's Model World in Canton, OH. So if they work ok at one track and not another, it would be very likely a track problem then.

    Mike is the problem on both of your tracks or just one? If it is on one track only, do you know what the power supply differences are? Interestingly, MMW does not use any caps on his power supply, So I would think it would be more prone. But yet it is not. I theorize without the caps the power supply will be a little slower to fill the demand from the track (soft start) then the extra umph you get with the caps (hard start). But then again he has 2-90 amp power supplies, so maybe that's enough to not need caps for these motors.

    I realize you indicated no interest in redoing the tracks power and I get that. But maybe it'll be something simple once it get's figured out. My initial thought would be a cap between the power supply and the relays to provide more current on the demand moment the relays turn on. 1-2 Farad Caps are less $40 on ebay now. Or if you have caps, them maybe try it without them as maybe the answer will be a "soft start" the power supplies would provide.

    In the meantime, didn't you figure out the brush cut solution fixes the problem. Or does it still occur even with the cut brushes?

    Or maybe, Just mandate Hawk 6's for the class(es)/track that is having the problem?

    Hope this helps

    Dave

  8. #218
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,398
    Bill Fulmer mentioned it doesn't happen much at MMW, but it has happened.

    IIRC, you run 14.3V and are racing a totally different kind of car.

    We typically run these motors on 13.1 and 12.2V, in Hardbody races.

    It happens on both tracks.

    I'm not going to raise the power to screw up drivability and ruin everyone's cars.

    PS- When I personally went to cut brushes, I never had a problem, but I'm not looking to get back into the messy brush cutting business, if possible.
    "Get Yourself Retrofied"
    Chicagoland Raceway
    17B West Ogden Ave.
    Westmont,Il. 60559
    Phone-708-203-8003
    [email protected]

    Check out Chicagoland Raceway on facebook.

  9. #219
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    119
    Maybe it has and I've never heard about it. That is always a possibility. I only race one class there and Bill runs a bunch more.

    I get the low voltage and drivability issue. So is it only on the road coarse and not the king then?

    Maybe the lower voltage from the supplies is affecting the demand equation the track and motor combo requires. Does the track have a cap 0.5 Farad or higher? If not, maybe try a cheapo ebay 1-2 Farad Cap between the supply and the relays. Or if it does, then try without them. Not much money or hassle to run the experiment.

    Having rewired a underwired king before when we moved locations, I would never ask *anyone* to go through that hell either. But maybe a few easy tweaks will subdue the problem. Eh?

    Also, Does the track have individual grounds or common grounds? I'll check with MMW to see what they have.

  10. #220
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,398
    I guessed you missed the posts from the other racers who have had problems, I.E. #214.
    "Get Yourself Retrofied"
    Chicagoland Raceway
    17B West Ogden Ave.
    Westmont,Il. 60559
    Phone-708-203-8003
    [email protected]

    Check out Chicagoland Raceway on facebook.

  11. #221
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,398
    Raising the voltage on the King to run hardbodies, that you already have to blip the bank, makes zero sense.

    I guessed you missed the posts from the other racers who have had problems, I.E. #206, 214.

    Cap Henry has also mentioned it has happened to him.
    "Get Yourself Retrofied"
    Chicagoland Raceway
    17B West Ogden Ave.
    Westmont,Il. 60559
    Phone-708-203-8003
    [email protected]

    Check out Chicagoland Raceway on facebook.

  12. #222
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    44
    I don't see how changing the voltage or adding a cap will solve this problem. It is an intermittent problem. If it were a matter of the voltage being to low or not enough current it would occur on every start and more people would have the issue. I will align the hoods and put new brushes in my motor that is having an issue. I will keep track of others at our track and see if others start having a problem.

  13. #223
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,398
    It is intermittent because it happens in the same one of the six cogs in the rotation.
    "Get Yourself Retrofied"
    Chicagoland Raceway
    17B West Ogden Ave.
    Westmont,Il. 60559
    Phone-708-203-8003
    [email protected]

    Check out Chicagoland Raceway on facebook.

  14. #224
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Cleveland, OH
    Posts
    119
    I'm sure I read 206 and 214 when they were posted but I'm getting old and somewhat CRS'd.

    Just got off the phone with Mark @ MMW.

    He says they seen it happen on just a few motors and it usually went away after a few push starts. He seems to think that it is the brushes wrapping around the smaller com after a few races or a good amount of laps.

    His track has Gerding designed alternating tap wiring and power supply bus with individual grounds going to a bus system a foot from the power supply. He says it keeps the track resistance pretty even no matter where you are in the lane.

    I guess the reason I've never seen it is we generally go over the motors (align hoods, make sure bushings are not binding, etc) before we ever install them to make sure the motor is in tip top shape before testing.

    Let's face it. A $14 motor is certainly never going to be as consistent a product as we would expect from a blueprinted motor.

    But IMHO, it is a darn good and fast motor for the money even if I have go over it first (which I would do on any and *every* factory motor that is not blueprinted). And I am very happy to run them in group F.

    PS. I still think cap/no cap testing may be of some benefit, If it is experiencing rotor lock, maybe a hard of soft start will push it along.

  15. #225
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    3,398
    Glad you got the "never happens" part straightened out.

    And what part of me saying the motor could use fixing and selling a hood alignment tool is different than you saying;
    "we generally go over the motors (align hoods, make sure bushings are not binding, etc) before we ever install them to make sure the motor is in tip top shape before testing."

    Adding caps?

    Other than the no time and dangerous part, no particular reason. LOL

    PS-I have 20-10 guage taps on my King,, 10 positive, 10 (individual) grounds, alternating at the 20 different sections of the track.

    In 3 days, we blew zero motors at the Sano, on either track, while I saw and heard about quite a few DNF's from blown motors, from the top racers at the last 2 big retro races, at MMW, both with the Retro Hawk at the ORS race, and the 4002FK at the whatever Ron calls his series race.

    Giving me MMW power tips seems pretty pointless, unless the point is to sell more motors.
    Last edited by swiss; 12-04-2015 at 09:38 PM.
    "Get Yourself Retrofied"
    Chicagoland Raceway
    17B West Ogden Ave.
    Westmont,Il. 60559
    Phone-708-203-8003
    [email protected]

    Check out Chicagoland Raceway on facebook.

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